Low turntable volume

[David I]

I'm a complete noob and I'm experiencing low volume from my turntable; records play approximately 20-25 dBs lower than CDs. I have a brand new Pro-ject Debut Carbon Evolution turntable, Cambridge AXR85 receiver and AXC35 cd player, and Klipsch RP-5000F floor speakers. The turntable came with a Sumiko Ranier cartridge, which I have set at 2 gm tracking weight, per Sumiko recommendation. The music sounds ok, just very low and kind of "dead". CDs sound loud and alive. I'm afraid I'm missing something obvious. Any thoughts/ideas? Thanks!

 

[Mike Lavigne]

Hello David, welcome to What's Best Forum. we will try to help the best we can.

since you are not telling us your level of expertise, i will get very basic here.....starting.....at the start. if i've gone too basic, please accept my apologies.

1--looking at your cartridge specs for output and receiver info for gain it appears that you should not have a problem. so your gear is properly matched where you should be able to get proper volume from records you play. and your receiver should work ok with your speakers (your CD's are fine so that tells us that part is ok),.

2---connections; (A) the most likely place where connection mistakes might result in low volume would be if you did not connect your phono cable to the MM input. so check that. are the two phono rca plugs fully connected to the MM phono input? if it's on another input then those other inputs do not have sufficient gain to give you much volume. if those cables are firmly plugged into the MM input, then (B) the next likely issue is that the cartridge is not fully connected at the end of the tonearm, so check that. is it snugly connected?

3---buttons or adjustments on the receiver. check the owner's manual or look at the front of the receiver. is there a menu where there are adjustments for different gain settings for the phono input? or maybe a mute button, or other gain adjustment?

did we find a possible solution? if not tell us what you found and we will go further.

 

[Addicted to hifi]

I think the lower output of vinyl is normal.cd players have a higher output voltage.

 

[Addicted to hifi]

Btw welcome David to wbf.

 

[David I]

Hello David, welcome to What's Best Forum. we will try to help the best we can.

since you are not telling us your level of expertise, i will get very basic here.....starting.....at the start. if i've gone too basic, please accept my apologies.

1--looking at your cartridge specs for output and receiver info for gain it appears that you should not have a problem. so your gear is properly matched where you should be able to get proper volume from records you play. and your receiver should work ok with your speakers (your CD's are fine so that tells us that part is ok),.

2---connections; (A) the most likely place where connection mistakes might result in low volume would be if you did not connect your phono cable to the MM input. so check that. are the two phono rca plugs fully connected to the MM phono input? if it's on another input then those other inputs do not have sufficient gain to give you much volume. if those cables are firmly plugged into the MM input, then (B) the next likely issue is that the cartridge is not fully connected at the end of the tonearm, so check that. is it snugly connected?

3---buttons or adjustments on the receiver. check the owner's manual or look at the front of the receiver. is there a menu where there are adjustments for different gain settings for the phono input? or maybe a mute button, or other gain adjustment?

did we find a possible solution? if not tell us what you found and we will go further.

Hi Mike, and thank you for the warm welcome! I appreciate your reply and suggestions. My level of expertise is zero, just starting out and learning along the way.

1--Thanks for checking the cartridge and receiver specs.

2--The cable is firmly connected to the MM Phono input (picture). Looking at the cartridge, the four wires (and ground wire?) appear to be connected well (picture).

I noticed "channel separation" in the cartridge specs, and noticed the value is about the volume difference between my records and cds. Do you think this is related to my issue?



3--My receiver does not seem to have a gain adjustment. It's not mentioned in the specs, nor do any buttons or the menu options indicate gain (menu is only bass/treble/balance).

Thanks again for your time/assistance!

 

[David I]

I think the lower output of vinyl is normal.cd players have a higher output voltage.

Hi, and thank you for the welcome and reply! Yes, I suppose the volume difference is just how it's supposed to be, but it doesn't seem right to me. As a test, I play a cd at volume -65 dB, then switch to the phono input with a record already playing. I have to turn to volume up to -45/-40 dB to get the approximate volume level, and the sound is very forced and un-dynamic (is that a word?). It does not sound like any parts of the music are missing, and there are no extra sounds (e.g. distortion/feedback). It just sounds weak.

I am new to all of this, and I am open to and appreciative of any comments or suggestions you may have. Thanks!

 

[Mike Lavigne]

I noticed "channel separation" in the cartridge specs, and noticed the value is about the volume difference between my records and cds. Do you think this is related to my issue?

View attachment 82367

3--My receiver does not seem to have a gain adjustment. It's not mentioned in the specs, nor do any buttons or the menu options indicate gain (menu is only bass/treble/balance).

David,

the channel separation spec is a measurement of how much left and right signals are separated (the higher the better for performance); and not relevant to your lower gain issue directly. the output voltage of 5mV is the big number for this discussion; and that robust output should give you plenty of 'gain' and 'life' in the music....considering a typical MM 40db input phono circuit gain.

looking at your connections both on the receiver chassis and cartridge all appears to be fine. color coding on the cartridge pins looks right. nothing obvious to quibble with.

next we consider things which might not seem to be relevant, but could turn out to be.

is anything mechanically loose? are the cartridge screws snug? (don't over-tighten). is the arm firmly attached to the plinth? these should not be involved in your situation, but you never know.

now we consider if maybe that the cartridge is not performing properly? maybe the stylus is loose or a piece is missing? unlikely as you would hear lots of distortion, not just lower gain. but get a magnifying glass and have a look. maybe clean it if you know how to do that. make sure you run any brush the correct direction.

you could also play around with grounding your cartridge or receiver. sometimes that can be a big deal. it's not logical it could be significant enough to cause your gain problem, but it's just a thing to consider.

if there is any way to substitute another cartridge or receiver/phono stage, or even a different phono cable, or test the cables, then these are possible issues......but very unlikely.

honestly it's a head scratcher and your gear looks straightforward and set up properly....to me.

 

[Addicted to hifi]

Hi, and thank you for the welcome and reply! Yes, I suppose the volume difference is just how it's supposed to be, but it doesn't seem right to me. As a test, I play a cd at volume -65 dB, then switch to the phono input with a record already playing. I have to turn to volume up to -45/-40 dB to get the approximate volume level, and the sound is very forced and un-dynamic (is that a word?). It does not sound like any parts of the music are missing, and there are no extra sounds (e.g. distortion/feedback). It just sounds weak.

I am new to all of this, and I am open to and appreciative of any comments or suggestions you may have. Thanks!

Vinyl isn’t as dynamic as cd.every turntable I have owned has had a lot lower output than my CD player.

 

[David I]

David,

the channel separation spec is a measurement of how much left and right signals are separated (the higher the better for performance); and not relevant to your lower gain issue directly. the output voltage of 5mV is the big number for this discussion; and that robust output should give you plenty of 'gain' and 'life' in the music....considering a typical MM 40db input phono circuit gain.

looking at your connections both on the receiver chassis and cartridge all appears to be fine. color coding on the cartridge pins looks right. nothing obvious to quibble with.

next we consider things which might not seem to be relevant, but could turn out to be.

is anything mechanically loose? are the cartridge screws snug? (don't over-tighten). is the arm firmly attached to the plinth? these should not be involved in your situation, but you never know.

now we consider if maybe that the cartridge is not performing properly? maybe the stylus is loose or a piece is missing? unlikely as you would hear lots of distortion, not just lower gain. but get a magnifying glass and have a look. maybe clean it if you know how to do that. make sure you run any brush the correct direction.

you could also play around with grounding your cartridge or receiver. sometimes that can be a big deal. it's not logical it could be significant enough to cause your gain problem, but it's just a thing to consider.

if there is any way to substitute another cartridge or receiver/phono stage, or even a different phono cable, or test the cables, then these are possible issues......but very unlikely.

honestly it's a head scratcher and your gear looks straightforward and set up properly....to me.

Mike,

Thank you for explaining channel separation. Nothing seems to be loose. I do have a stylus cleaner, and I will go ahead and give it another cleaning. I'm wondering if there might be a defect in my cartridge/stylus or the phono preamp in the receiver. Or maybe Addicted to hifi is right, records are less dynamic and just play lower. I understand my gear isn't top of the line by any means, but for the setup I put together, I was expecting a better sound than I'm getting.

Thanks again for your advice and suggestions; it was all very helpful.

 

[MPS]

You could try a separate phono preamplifier (RIAA) just to see if the one build in your amplifier is the bottleneck.

 

[David I]

You could try a separate phono preamplifier (RIAA) just to see if the one build in your amplifier is the bottleneck.

Thanks, MPS. Unfortunately, I don't own one, so I'll have to purchase one for that test.

 

[Addicted to hifi]

Hi, and thank you for the welcome and reply! Yes, I suppose the volume difference is just how it's supposed to be, but it doesn't seem right to me. As a test, I play a cd at volume -65 dB, then switch to the phono input with a record already playing. I have to turn to volume up to -45/-40 dB to get the approximate volume level, and the sound is very forced and un-dynamic (is that a word?). It does not sound like any parts of the music are missing, and there are no extra sounds (e.g. distortion/feedback). It just sounds weak.

I am new to all of this, and I am open to and appreciative of any comments or suggestions you may have. Thanks!

It should be fine to use more volume if needed. I use around 3 with cd and 5 with vinyl.

 

[David I]

I wanted to post an update for anyone that might be interested...

After discussing the issue with a Crutchfield tech, he agreed that there might be an issue with the internal preamp in the Cambridge amplifier, so he approved an exchange. I just set up the replacement unit, and nothing has changed. I will likely explore external preamps at some point.

Thanks everyone for your input/comments/suggestions.

 

[ddk]

I wanted to post an update for anyone that might be interested...

After discussing the issue with a Crutchfield tech, he agreed that there might be an issue with the internal preamp in the Cambridge amplifier, so he approved an exchange. I just set up the replacement unit, and nothing has changed. I will likely explore external preamps at some point.

Thanks everyone for your input/comments/suggestions.

It’s normal for the CD to have a higher output nothing strange there. The elephant in the room is that you have a budget system with a low end turntable playing new LPs. It takes more money and effort to bring life to an analog front end than it does for a budget digital front end to sing and that’s a fact. Analog doesn’t automatically offer an advantage over digital between the hardware and software you have many challenges to overcome that digital doesn’t have. I’m not trying to put you off only offering some perspective.

david

 

[Cableman]

my CD Dac/transport had a substantially higher output volume than my turntable and high end Phonostage, and as volume is absolutely crucial to sound quality in a room , I had to ditch the phonostage and get one with a higher output. May I suggest if may be as simple as that

 

[benito]

I wanted to post an update for anyone that might be interested...

After discussing the issue with a Crutchfield tech, he agreed that there might be an issue with the internal preamp in the Cambridge amplifier, so he approved an exchange. I just set up the replacement unit, and nothing has changed. I will likely explore external preamps at some point.

Thanks everyone for your input/comments/suggestions.

It is not normal that you have a such diff between CD and vinyl. Some possibilities:
1) the phono board is may be optional, which amp is it ? I have had an amp on which it was written phono on the back but without the board.
2) the cartridge has a problem.
3) the phono cable has a problem.

 

[nickif]

Vinyl is a lot of fun, so please don’t be put off by any means.

My advice is:
1, if it’s only the volume difference then it’s normal, just crank up the volume when listening to vinyl
2, if cranking up the volume does not help i.e. limited dynamics; lifeless presentation, then it’s a sign of not enough gain on the phono section. It’s better to invest into a decent quality phono with enough gain. Something like an EAR is worth considering. As you’ll find phono might be the most important part of a vinyl front-end and the sound quality difference between phonos are huge…

 

[Cableman]

Vinyl is a lot of fun, so please don’t be put off by any means.

My advice is:
1, if it’s only the volume difference then it’s normal, just crank up the volume when listening to vinyl
2, if cranking up the volume does not help i.e. limited dynamics; lifeless presentation, then it’s a sign of not enough gain on the phono section. It’s better to invest into a decent quality phono with enough gain. Something like an EAR is worth considering. As you’ll find phono might be the most important part of a vinyl front-end and the sound quality difference between phonos are huge…

I had an Ypsilon phonostage. Decent quality? Damn right! But not enough gain. It’s nothing to do with quality. It’s to do with gain. Try something like a Tom Evans. Gain in abundance

 

[nickif]

I had an Ypsilon phonostage. Decent quality? Damn right! But not enough gain. It’s nothing to do with quality. It’s to do with gain. Try something like a Tom Evans. Gain in abundance

that’s more than decent quality, Ypsilon is not famous for gain, which cart are you using? maybe a matching SUT? I think the Ypsilon is top class phono, no need to switch for something else. Actually a SUT+MM might be the perfect solution for LOMC carts, better than a high gain MC phono