Lampizator announcement: launch of our all new TOTL HORIZON DAC

[dminches]

In other words, because Lukasz uses power output tubes in the Horizon in a very atypical manner, do I conclude correctly that everything we might know about specific output tubes from the way they drive speakers in other gear (i.e. amplifiers), is not necessarily translatable to how they might perform with the Horizon? If so, it seems safe to say that the only way to really know how specific output tubes will sound in the Horizon, is simply…to try them in the Horizon! Don’t rely on their reputation based on how they are purported to sound in more typical applications such as driving speakers. Make sense?

100%. Frankly, I use that approach with any new piece of equipment since every designer implements tubes differently. How one tube sounds in one amp may be different than how it sounds in another.

 

[bonzo75]

Marty, even the current DHTs being used in the GG and Pac were used in amps for driving speakers. They were just used in much lower watt SETs while the horizon tubes are used in higher powered amps.

With the current GG and Pac, if a 300b is preferred in an amp, it might not necessarily be preferred in Lampi, but in most cases the preferences between various 300b valves hold true. Similarly 45s are stellar in amps, and many do prefer the EML globe anniversary in amps too, just like with Lampi. 242 are usually no more than driver tubes in amps, but they are quite superior if matched right in Lampi. Same thing might happen between horizon, tough to say unless we get many data points across systems which will easily take over a year

 

[dminches]

Will 6SL7s be usable in the Horizon? They are similar to 6SN7s but have a much higher mu. There are some really nice ECC35s (European 6SL7) that would be nice to try if they are ok.

 

[Steve williams]

One of the benefits of the Horizon seems to be that it can be optimized for many systems using specific tube choices. I’m comfortable knowing what to expect from changing rectifiers, small signal tubes and output tubes in a variety of gear. But what has often guided me in the past, namely SQ in a typical setting, seems to be off the table regarding output tubes for the Horizon. If I look at what others have recommended for SQ of rectis and small tubes, much of that is based on how they sound in their typical applications which makes it reasonable to assess how they will perform in my gear. But with output tubes in the Horizon, one can’t really do that because we are not really looking for how these output tubes drive speakers, which is the way their performance is typically assessed. If I understand correctly, Lukasz uses his pentodes in a different way:

“The pentodes provide power supply regulation, active anode loading and cathode buffering - all at the same time - thanks to their 3 grids.” (post #44)

Even though I don’t really understand this technically, let’s translate what this means in real world use for tube selection. If, for example, I wanted to consider using EL-34’s for the outputs of the Horizon, it might be easy to say that perhaps I should try NOS Mullards because they have traditionally been considered among the very best EL-34s. However, that’s for driving speakers! Will they sound superb in the Horizon in the unique way that they are being used there? Let’s consider the Tung-Sol KT-170 which was developed because it can generate 80W of power unlike some of its predecessors like the KT-150. In the Horizon, do we really care about that? Does it really matter? How will they sound in their Horizon application? (According to Lukasz, so far, so good!)

In other words, because Lukasz uses power output tubes in the Horizon in a very atypical manner, do I conclude correctly that everything we might know about specific output tubes from the way they drive speakers in other gear (i.e. amplifiers), is not necessarily translatable to how they might perform with the Horizon? If so, it seems safe to say that the only way to really know how specific output tubes will sound in the Horizon, is simply…to try them in the Horizon! Don’t rely on their reputation based on how they are purported to sound in more typical applications such as driving speakers. Make sense?

Maybe you need to fly into Orange County for the weekend demos as I am understanding Lukasz will be bringing a stash of tubes

 

[Golum]

Maybe you need to fly into Orange County for the weekend demos as I am understanding Lukasz will be bringing a stash of tubes

He does need to fly in!

 

[marty]

He does need to fly in!

Why spend money on airplane travel when I can spend it on tubes!!! HA!
PS. For what Bendix 6900's cost, I can fly Goran from Switzerland to California...twice!!

 

[Golum]

One of the benefits of the Horizon seems to be that it can be optimized for many systems using specific tube choices. I’m comfortable knowing what to expect from changing rectifiers, small signal tubes and output tubes in a variety of gear. But what has often guided me in the past, namely SQ in a typical setting, seems to be off the table regarding output tubes for the Horizon. If I look at what others have recommended for SQ of rectis and small tubes, much of that is based on how they sound in their typical applications which makes it reasonable to assess how they will perform in my gear. But with output tubes in the Horizon, one can’t really do that because we are not really looking for how these output tubes drive speakers, which is the way their performance is typically assessed. If I understand correctly, Lukasz uses his pentodes in a different way:

“The pentodes provide power supply regulation, active anode loading and cathode buffering - all at the same time - thanks to their 3 grids.” (post #44)

Even though I don’t really understand this technically, let’s translate what this means in real world use for tube selection. If, for example, I wanted to consider using EL-34’s for the outputs of the Horizon, it might be easy to say that perhaps I should try NOS Mullards because they have traditionally been considered among the very best EL-34s. However, that’s for driving speakers! Will they sound superb in the Horizon in the unique way that they are being used there? Let’s consider the Tung-Sol KT-170 which was developed because it can generate 80W of power unlike some of its predecessors like the KT-150. In the Horizon, do we really care about that? Does it really matter? How will they sound in their Horizon application? (According to Lukasz, so far, so good!)

In other words, because Lukasz uses power output tubes in the Horizon in a very atypical manner, do I conclude correctly that everything we might know about specific output tubes from the way they drive speakers in other gear (i.e. amplifiers), is not necessarily translatable to how they might perform with the Horizon? If so, it seems safe to say that the only way to really know how specific output tubes will sound in the Horizon, is simply…to try them in the Horizon! Don’t rely on their reputation based on how they are purported to sound in more typical applications such as driving speakers. Make sense?

To me it extremely makes sense all what you wrote above. Personally I can only make a "possible" link between output tubes used in
Baltic 3 (6sn7) but again used in Horizon and this particular circuitry who knows how they will do/react.
But also what Ked wrote - it is much higher probability that already top notch tubes like 6900 and pentodes will make a killer combo then some "unknown" ones.
Anyhow it will be a great ride for the guys with the upcoming DAC and many fresh data points available until late spring/early summer (northern hemisphere)

 

[Golum]

Why spend money on airplane travel when I can spend it on tubes!!! HA!
PS. For what Bendix 6900's cost, I can fly Goran from Switzerland to California...twice!!

Always a good thing to buy tubes
Ain't a cheap tube - that's for sure...

 

[DasguteOhr]

Always a good thing to buy tubes
Ain't a cheap tube - that's for sure...

so you always have money for a nice vacation

 

[K3RMIT]

With all the new specs and design of the horizon. The one that stands out to me is the low output imp. how he arrives seems cloudy for now. soon I’ll print out his posts and try to decipher a bit. But this makes big changes in the tubes we use. the varying output imp of the tubes we use has a bigger part then we most know.

 

[2ndLiner]

so you always have money for a nice vacation
View attachment 86690

I believe that's taunting, ha!

 

[DasguteOhr]

I believe that's taunting, ha!

Today people are investing in Bitcoin ,when I stopped working at telefunken and took every tube I could get. these are the old bitcoins. sometimes you have to be lucky

 

[2ndLiner]

Today people are investing in Bitcoin ,when I stopped working at telefunken and took every tube I could get. these are the old bitcoins. sometimes you have to be lucky

Wow, fortuitous, cool story!

 

[zitas]

is the volume control meant to use?

 

[Steve williams]

is the volume control meant to use?

Yes. Otherwise why have one

 

[wisnon]

Just a brief update to those who are considering hearing the Horizon at my house in Feb when Lukasz and Fred are present....Yesterday, 4 more members have added their names to the list so things are filling up.

I was hoping to have an open house demo on Monday evening but Fred and Lukasz will be leaving on Monday . So if you are still considering the event you should sign up sooner rather than later as there just might not be enough room for everyone

Finally, to reiterate my lack of interest in tube rolling, I did take great interest in post 44 where Master Yoda discusses his tube preferences in the Horizon.I read with great interest about the 6900 which I have never heard of before. Apparently only 3000 were ever made by the US military before production was stopped forever

I found some interesting articles about the tube and decided I was very interested in this tube. A text from Lukasz to me further convinced me to search for this tube when he stated "6900 is made by Gods in heaven"

Well after a 2 week search I did find a source who had several matched pairs of the Bendix 6900 which I quickly purchased. Along with these I will try the 6N1P-EB for input but I have also ordered 2 pairs of the KT-88's and I have an RK-KR 5u4g

I have never heard the 6900 let alone heard "of" the 6900 but having bought 2 pairs I am told y the seller that these are not only unobtanioum but a must listen if Lukasz says these are his favorite

I am also told that I will have my Horizon at least a week before the weekend sessions at my house. This will hopefully allow sufficient time for tube burn in as well as getting the Horizon settled on a set of Center Stage CS2M's which are currently under the Pacific

I will keep updating status of the weekend demos but it is filling faster than I thought so please reach out to me if you are planning to attend

Wow, great buy Steve!

 

[wisnon]

Why spend money on airplane travel when I can spend it on tubes!!! HA!
PS. For what Bendix 6900's cost, I can fly Goran from Switzerland to California...twice!!

What is the per pair price of the 6900?

 

[zitas]

Yes. Otherwise why have one

thx.
do you think the volume control is at the level of the dac and can eliminate a sota preamp in a digital only system?

 

[Steve williams]

That’s a very good question which I cannot answer. I use the VC on my Pacific to tune the tubes but I use a separate preamp to control volume. My bet is the VC on the DAC would suffice

 

[marty]

What is the per pair price of the 6900?

Just take a look on Ebay. And make sure you are sitting down before you do.