Is Wilson losing their marketing edge?
- Thread starter caesar
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Yes well I must admit to not going down the SET path with the Original Slamms here--I posted this --how the Cello Performance Amps had no drive and were discarded. And you say a SET would deliver the goods with that speaker?--interesting but I'm still sceptical
!https://www.whatsbestforum.com/thre...ing-sablon-powercord.26725/page-2#post-541230
BruceD
Yes, he has. I must say some of his threads, boosted by everyone's contributions, make for the most entertaining reads. Like this one.
And yes, Wilson has had seven years time now, from when the question was asked, to lose their marketing edge. But as Caesar himself says, the question was never a serious one.
Yes well I must admit to not going down the SET path with the Original Slamms here--I posted this --how the Cello Performance Amps had no drive and were discarded. And you say a SET would deliver the goods with that speaker?--interesting but I'm still sceptical
https://www.whatsbestforum.com/thre...ing-sablon-powercord.26725/page-2#post-541230
BruceD
Why would you be skeptical? As is commonly accepted, SETs always work, with almost any speaker. It's part of their irresistible magic.
Yes well I must admit to not going down the SET path with the Original Slamms here--I posted this --how the Cello Performance Amps had no drive and were discarded. And you say a SET would deliver the goods with that speaker?--interesting but I'm still sceptical
https://www.whatsbestforum.com/thre...ing-sablon-powercord.26725/page-2#post-541230
BruceD
As far as I remember the Cello Performance amplifiers were optimized for the Cello Stradivari that had around 1 - 2 ohm impedance. It was really a strange amplifier - I remember that with some speakers the stereo Cello Duet, costing one fifth of the price of the Peformance monos sounded much better. The Cello Encore monoblocks also seemed to lack drive with many speakers - I once got an used pair at a nice price, never managed to create an enjoyable sound with them. So they moved out at a even nicer price. Curiously the next owner also sold them after some time ... Perhaps they were designed to help selling the Audio Palette equalizer!
A good friend told me that Duet's used as monblocks were the way to go in Cello systems.The Grand Slamm's have an high impedance by today's standards and were very efficient - at that time I saw pictures of systems using them with 7 and 10W tube amplifiers.
Power and dynamic sound are not really correlated.Yes well I must admit to not going down the SET path with the Original Slamms here--I posted this --how the Cello Performance Amps had no drive and were discarded. And you say a SET would deliver the goods with that speaker?--interesting but I'm still sceptical
https://www.whatsbestforum.com/thre...ing-sablon-powercord.26725/page-2#post-541230
BruceD
As far as I remember the Cello Performance amplifiers were optimized for the Cello Stradivari that had around 1 - 2 ohm impedance. It was really a strange amplifier - I remember that with some speakers the stereo Cello Duet, costing one fifth of the price of the Peformance monos sounded much better. The Cello Encore monoblocks also seemed to lack drive with many speakers - I once got an used pair at a nice price, never managed to create an enjoyable sound with them. So they moved out at a even nicer price. Curiously the next owner also sold them after some time ... Perhaps they were designed to help selling the Audio Palette equalizer!
The Grand Slamm's have an high impedance by today's standards and were very efficient - at that time I saw pictures of systems using them with 7 and 10W tube amplifiers.
Agree mostly on what you say here--owned all of the above--tried the Duets as Monos--sadly still no Cigar--but I did manage to enjoy the little Encore Monos with my Watt /Pups--maybe shows a divergent lot we are --ha!
BruceD
So true but I guess 20 odd years ago my priorities were swayed by the marketing /reviews
--and personal ego(gulp!)to get the Power to the metal
Some attention to subtleties and accurate matching of components would've been more in the order of the day--my bad.
I will mention though I had the pleasure to have Troy K(RIP) do the setup and alignment --he too expressed limitations of the sonics at the time.
BruceD
Agree mostly on what you say here--owned all of the above--tried the Duets as Monos--sadly still no Cigar--but I did manage to enjoy the little Encore Monos with my Watt /Pups--maybe shows a divergent lot we are --ha!
BruceD
View attachment 45781
Nice. Sometime around 2000 ... Great times!
So true but I guess 20 odd years ago my priorities were swayed by the marketing /reviews
--and personal ego(gulp!)to get the Power to the metal
Some attention to subtleties and accurate matching of components would've been more in the order of the day--my bad.
I will mention though I had the pleasure to have Troy K(RIP) do the setup and alignment --he too expressed limitations of the sonics at the time.
BruceD
I would risk that part of the problem was the Theta digital system. At that time I found that the Forsell CD transport was the best way by far to get music from CDs with Cello's - the Forsell transport and DAC with the Cello Pallete preamplifier (not the Audio Pallete) and Duet sounded musical on my ESL63, although the Forsell DAC was "soft" on bass articulation.
Mark Levinson used the Forsell transport in his Cello demo systems.
Hi Microstrip,
Look first let me say that this is an emotional subject for audiophiles because they believe it draws an unjust picture of their behavior...and we are talking about many successful people with great brains, successful careers, healthy bank accounts, etc. ...yet biases exist....
Normally the human mind works remarkably well we can do incredible intellectual tasks. But people get fooled by a number of systematic biases...
Although I have no doubt that you approach your gear decision rationally, I think you'll be surprised if you knew how many people just chase a brand... you come to this site and socialize with the most passionate and knowledgeable individuals in the hobby. Take a guy who spends all day sorting beans into different colors, shapes, kinds, and types. He can talk non- stop about bean-ness and its infinite nuances of flavor , variations of shape, and permutations of texture . But most people don't really care about all that nuance.
Not every audiophile is like you. There are a lot of stupid Rich people in this hobby ...some clown or "Audio journalist" writes something up beautifully, and some clueless , Platonic imaginationist guys think that they'll find their bliss by buying that system or plugging that piece into their system ... these clueless folk imagine an orchestra in it's full glory, with every minutest detail of every instrument , every bead of sweat on the conductor, and every nose hair on the and musician - in a blink of an eye! - in their 14 foot by 16 foot room!!!
Imagining is very easy for us humans. Just imagine world peace, but we all know it ain't happening... I can hear so many people on this site singing along with John Lennon
So just because YOU are not "cattle" doesn't mean that others aren't a part of the herd.
Having read many of your posts over the years, you are big on quoting speaker research from Floyd O'Toole . But here's some research on accepting authority that is much more broadly accepted and much more influential than what Floyd O'Toole has come up with. And that is just a single element of influence. There's also rock solid, accepted research that has been proved by a large number of studies and meta studies on the other influence techniques. And I'm not even talking about the power of these techniques when used in combination.
Here are some cool videos of some of the most influential experiments:
Asch Conformity experiment. We all know that guy in the t-shirt. 75% conform at least once, while 2% give incorrect response in private!!!
Clip of MIlgram's experiment:
Full Milgram experiment:
Look, I'm not saying Wilson is bad speaker...I think it's excellent for those who like that...
And I know it's an emotional subject and a paradigm shift, but some brands are popular because they are everywhere and have been accepted by social networks of fans, reviewers, and invested in by dealers. Familiarity breeds popularity. Tastes have crystallized ... Yet if one doesn't share that taste, it's mostly expensive bling.
Hi Metaphacts,
I hope you had an excellent Thanksgiving! I have not heard your strategic analysis of why Wilson audio has won so many of those RMAF RHIPA awards, but here's a differing perspective. (Also discussed here: https://whatsbestforum.com/threads/...ir-best-products-fun-what-do-you-think.21666/)
The reason you won those awards is not because you are best. Certainly you are very, very good for what you do, but this is a subjective hobby.
High end audio products are "experience goods". I know the feelings of our measurement members and friends will be hurt, but measuring gear doesn't provide an answer of what's best or better; you can test it in a lab all you want like you can with a vacuum cleaner or a washer, but that evaluation effort will be meaningless. This is because, all gear manufacturers despite manufacturing products, in effect, provide an experience.
What this means is that audio fans can't know in advance if the experience audio manufacturers are selling is the one they will enjoy. Many of us have been so disappointed by spending our precious time and money, traveling or putting into our system, or god-forbid - buying, these over-hyped products.
Thus audio journalists and online chatter from fans is much more relevant in marketing high end audio. There are few, if any, objective claims to audio excellence, and audio fans disagree on what's good, as we all know too well. So consumer choices reflect tastes, not verifiable or justified differences in quality of the experience!
The Wilson sonic signature has been around for a long time. Your finishes are excellent. The workmanship is outstanding. Most people are excellent (except for that Snooty Peter McGrath). There is a strong support network.
Coming back to the awards, the "audio journalists" who voted for Wilson audio share your taste. Their readers like your taste, and it gets reinforced by the "audio journalists". And people online chat about what they like, which is echoed by other fans (social proof).
So those guys’ collection of past experiences with Wilson provides a context, a lens, and a background to evaluate all else via Wilson.
Yet if reviewers who prefer the Magico sonic signature such as valin (although the great Yoda has awakened and has now positively reviewed a Voxativ and has hinted that the Magnepan 30.7 is better than the Magico M3!), Hartley, Astor, and Fritz were participating instead of the wilson reviewers like Jason Victor Serinunios, Atkinson, Fremer, Ken Kessler, Roy "Stop rambling on and on, and say it! Get to the FUKKING point already!) Gregory, Magico would have swept all of the categories, including the cheapest category for their new a3! (And guys like Herb Reichert , Steve Gutenberg, Art Dudley, and sometimes, the Stupendously Talented Jonathan valin prefer something else altogether.)
Coke cola is also very popular and tastes great. But is it the best?
Don't celebrate too hard. Keep improving your designs slowly but surely. Tastes are pretty crystallized...If you make any radical changes to your sonic signature, you will lose customers. The next Magico S class model, or someone else, which will have many virtues of Magico and Wilson, will come around and eat your lunch...
Hi Twitch,
I hope you had an excellent Thanksgiving with your family. By your comment, echoing Metaphacts, that this is all about nothing, you sound like a guy who runs his watt puppy with audio research.
just kidding! The real problem is that in luxury , entertainment industries like high end audio, primarily the top brands do great, but smaller brands maybe sell a few pieces of gear a year, usually to their family members. The guy building this stuff in a small garage-sized factory gives it away for the cost of parts to his brother and charges his 95 year old, deaf mother triple.
The profitability in this industry is as asymmetrical as Star Wars vs. an excellent documentary without distribution rights.
How many brands from RMAF 2008 are still around? Not many - most were doomed to oblivion. Did many of those suck? Yes. Could some of them made it prime time with enough marketing support and buzz? Probably .
Without marketing support from the reviewers and online social chatter, these smaller brands have as much chance as a mom and pop book shop has competing against Amazon.
Over the years many people have acquired the taste of Magico with soulution or Wilson with Lyra . And psychological forces of influence are very powerful. But if you have the taste of say panel speakers, like soubdlab or magnepan, you are second best.
It's even worse for the smaller brands, and innovation suffers. Imagine how much better that dac or amp from a smaller manufacturer would be if they got more publicity. There are many great tube amps out there from Manley, rogue, Cary, bat, etc. Yet those who have closely aligned with Wilson such as audio research and VTL, dominate. (Yet most tube amps other than big VTL or CAT sound too syrupy and lack beitzim driving most of the power-hungry Wilson models. And only alexandria is not power hungry and can be driven by the great Lamm.)
The most popular products are hardly what anybody would consider to be the best there are. They are most popular because they are simply everywhere; dealers carry them and reviewers revere them. People can hear them fairly easily. And one can find reviews on the social sites like this one. But those of us who don't share those tastes are told by the elites and audio journalists that the rest of us are listening to badly unrealistic-sounding gear. Or your gear sucks because some guys picked Wilson for all of their awards.
For those of us who don't share the taste of Magico or Wilson, the innovation isn't as robust.
The rest of us are just living in dhimmitude to Wilson and Magico. It's a huge problem for the industry, and the industry is dying.
So coming back to your point, why is it a big deal? In a nutshell, it's about better products, better value for the money, more money spent in the industry, more innovation, more enjoyment and passion about high end Audio at all price points, and better experiences listening to music. All are a big deal!
Yet the status quo in the industry doesn't quite work. Our Kodak moment has changed. It's no longer Sinatra on the Kodak billboard. Instead, it's that rusted Kodak sign. Customer has shifted. Companies are dying. It's time to see things through a new lens.
Here you say something very profound and true about human nature. It is a problem that deeply affects all of us. Even if we are individually less prone to those errors of bias -- and let's face it, even the most self-reflective among us cannot avoid them entirely -- on a societal level we all suffer from those errors.
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