Is there hope of bridging the subjectivist/objectivist rift?

[ack]

There is a thread on audiogon that really caught my attention - and jazdoc you may want to elaborate... But boy, does it really portray how and black and white we audiophiles hear and perceive things... But in the end, is it really different than, say, perception of visual art, or other material things that appeal to us???

Emphases are mine

Jazdoc,

Albert, I'll take the bait...I don't own an A90, so no dog in this (impending) fight. I have heard it in numerous systems, and while not my absolute favorite cartridge, I still consider it excellent. Is this simply a matter of taste or does it do something that truly bothers you?​

The Ortofon A90 does not do anything "wrong" in the sense of distortion, mistrack or anything like that. It's just a soul less, bland, flat and uninvolving cartridge without much dynamic contrast and lacking low bass output.

In one test here it was on a $7000.00 German made tonearm and with half a dozen listeners in the room we alternated between that and a SME 312S fitted with a Shure V15Vxmr.

All but one person preferred the Shure and it's a $300.00 moving magnet design. Actually the sound of the two are in many ways similar, it would be interesting if others did the test and reported back. We did this test a year or two back and everyone involved sold off their Ortofon.

There was a couple of cartridges that were worse, the ZYX Omega and Universe.

These test does not conclude that you would agree, it's just my and my group finding and an honest response. Likely I (we) have different taste than what others might be looking for.

 

[cjfrbw]

Of course, the objectivists simply need to surrender unconditionally.

 

[microstrip]

ACK,
As people have different views about products and reading just a part of a post in a friendly exchange of opinions can be misleading to readers I add the link to the thread at Audiogon so people can figure the system and conditions that engaged the posts:

http://forum.audiogon.com/cgi-bin/fr.pl?vaslt&1022712214&openfrom&2170&4#2170

 

[Thomas.Dennehy]

Objectivists who look to math when in doubt are sometimes derided as "elistist liberal know-it-all" with "fancy-schmancy university dregrees."

 

[JackD201]

Is there really anybody on this planet that is really not a combination of both?

 

[Mike Lavigne]

for many reasons that is a bad quote to use as evidence of anything other than different people have different views on musical truth. in other words, sometimes 2 different people listening to the same thing at the same time can assign different values to what they hear.

this is not a subjective/objective question. it's a personal musical compass question. what do you view as the ideal?

i find that the listeners i most interact with are those who, while maybe not having exactly the same musical compass as me, generally agree with interpreting what we hear similarly......we may assign different values to the same things.

if i go into a room and there are radically different views on fundamental interpretations of what is doing what......then there is a disconnect somewhere.

 

[jazdoc]

this is not a subjective/objective question. it's a personal musical compass question. what do you view as the ideal?

i find that the listeners i most interact with are those who, while maybe not having exactly the same musical compass as me, generally agree with interpreting what we hear similarly......we may assign different values to the same things.

I believe the most important thing is develop a sense of what constitutes your unique inner musical compass. It's important to be open to what others prefer, because you are likely to learn something.

Mike and I listen together frequently. Indeed, we had a variation of this discussion during our most recent session. We've spent enough time together that we know each others preferences; Mike leans toward a slightly more detailed and I prefer slightly more tonal saturation. Every time I visit his magnificent room it takes me a few minutes to re-orient; his system does certain things much better than mine, especially handling 'big' pieces like orchestral works, Led Zeppelin and the like. I always enjoy my time at Mike's and frequently add to my database for future considerations in my own system.

Back to the original post. I have my feet in both camps. IMO, measurements are there to guide you, but your ears and inner preferences are the ultimate decision making tools. For example, I wouldn't try and match an 85 db efficient speaker with a SET amp. Measurements are certainly important for manufacturers to test design goals and for quality assurance. Measurements can provide insights into why something may or may not sound good. But measurements meet the proverbial road when subjected to the actual listening experience.

 

[mep]

Doc-Is "tonal saturation" code for saying you prefer the sound of tubes to SS?

 

[MylesBAstor]

Or is this a topic in search of an audience? It seems that only the measurement people care because they feel that God has put them on earth to save us poor misguided fools from ourselves. Did we ask for their help? You know, it's a hobby and as a nurse friends used to say, "if it's not code blue, it's not that important."

Does, however, anyone but 2% of high-end audio people really care? They're not technogeeks--or maybe that's because most of my audio buddies are analog people. All they want to do is have fun--something that has been sadly lost from the hobby. All the people I know care about is does that component or system sound good. They go to a concert a week and certainly know what music sounds like! All they want is their system to sound like the concerts they go to.

 

[jazdoc]

Doc-Is "tonal saturation" code for saying you prefer the sound of tubes to SS?

Not necessarily. I have a good friend who has an all SS system that certainly has terrific tonal density. That said; this particular aspect of reproduction plays to the strengths of tubes. The best tube and SS systems have both detail and tonal saturation.

 

[Phelonious Ponk]

An objectivist with a phono cartridge? Seriously?

Tim

 

[flez007]

There is a thread on audiogon that really caught my attention - and jazdoc you may want to elaborate... But boy, does it really portray how and black and white we audiophiles hear and perceive things... But in the end, is it really different than, say, perception of visual art, or other material things that appeal to us???

Emphases are mine

I am afraid there is no hope ack, I surrender many moons ago

 

[MylesBAstor]

I am afraid there is no hope ack, I surrender many moons ago

Is it true you raised a white LP to surrender

 

[flez007]

Is it true you raised a white LP to surrender

Something like it Myles!

 

[JackD201]

An objectivist with a phono cartridge? Seriously?

Tim

A subjectivist with a VTF scale accurate to a 100th of a gram? Really?

 

[microstrip]

A subjectivist with a VTF scale accurate to a 100th of a gram? Really?

Jack,
I hope you are not referring to a digital scale!

 

[Robh3606]

Is there really anybody on this planet that is really not a combination of both?

Thats the way I look at is as well. You need a little of both to be balanced and have a handle on things.

Robh

 

[RogerD]

“For those who believe, no proof is necessary. For those who don't believe, no proof is possible.”

- Stuart Chase

 

[jazdoc]

This thread reminded of the Stereophile article about Subjectivists and Objectivists from April 1992 "Across The Great Divide" by Barry Willis. The combatants change but the arguments don't. Here are a few highlights:

"The vociferousness with which this issue is being argued is unjustifiable. Neither side has a case which ultimately can be proved or disproved. Both positions consist of strongly held opinions backed by statistical and anecdotal evidence, both have elements of truth, and both are seriously flawed. As in most disputes, fanatics on both sides take themselves far too seriously....

The time has come to stop the vicious and unreasonable ridicule of colleagues with whom we do not agree. Rancor and hysteria have no place in the quest for scientific knowledge, or in the pursuit of the elusive musical truth. This internecine dispute serves only to distract us from that great passion which unites us: the love of music."

 

[flez007]

Great quote RegerD!