Is Audiophilia a Dying Hobby or Just in Need of a Tune-Up?
- Thread starter exupgh12
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absurd to say the hobby is dying because of cost of gear, the industry is flooded with inexpensive gear for everyone, state of the art, maybe not but still very nice. everyone has a budget, much like buying a car or home or watch, you may not be able to afford a $200k car but that doesn't mean you walk or ride a bike cause there's many $20k cars out there
Their is a similar thread on AVSForum about "Is Home Theater Dying?"
I owned my first real stereo system in the 60's. [Yes, I'm old]. I've spent massive amounts of money over the years to try to achieve audio nirvana [which this side of Heaven, doesn't exist]. I've been in and around the audio [and now home theater audio] business for well over 50 years. There is not enough money in the Universe that can be spent to be able to totally and accurately reproduce live music other than with live music. Never happening. For one of my previous birthdays, my wife hired a 3 piece jazz combo to play in our home. It was that event that convinced me [and a fellow audiophile who has one of the very best 2 channel systems I have ever heard] that we are still a bazillion miles from our goal [as apposed to 2 bazillion miles 60 years ago]. It was also that event that sent me in a different [and a slightly more "fulfilling"] direction .
Want to attract more women? For 2 channel, not going to happen. Want to attract more younger men? For 2-channel, not going to happen. The days of a listener [alone] sitting in a semi dark room, with speakers and boxes and wires strewn all over the room, and him admiring his shiny metal equipment and pretending he can "see' an orchestra or female vocalist or rock band are gone. Put a fork in it. Done. In the next 5 years? No. Don't know how long but the party's over. And the cost of equipment being obscenely high has zero to do with it. If listening to/enjoying great music is REALLY our primary goal, the equipment cost won't keep folks from doing that. My daughter and son-in-law make 2 to 3 times the money I did in my best years; own 2 homes [one fully paid for]; drive $150,000 worth of cars. All of their "spare" time is spent in "activities". And for music, they go to live concerts.
Change the end objective and maybe, just maybe, there's hope [and this applies to home theater as well].
Add visuals [youtube music or BluRay concerts];
Add surround sound [e.g. Apple Atmos/Spatial Audio].
Hide the equipment to provide a less sterile, "equipment lab" environment;
Make the decor more inviting [forget all dark/black rooms];
Change the lighting;
In a home theater, dump the high back traditional theater chairs and replace with sofas, sectionals; coffee tables. Add a bar behind the seating.
Up-mix 2-channel to use all of the speakers in the room [Auro?]. Still a bazillion miles from live but certainly f far more immersive than 2 channels;
Get your spouse involved in the room [cosmetic] design process;
The end result of these recommendations [and probably more] should be an “involving, immersive, experience” and NOT replicating live music. not a theater or a music room. I've been in a very few [not necessarily perfect in the cosmetic category] . It can be transformational. And no, my room is most certainly not one of them - at least cosmetically [though I did dump the theater chairs for a sectional sofa].
YMMV.
I owned my first real stereo system in the 60's. [Yes, I'm old]. I've spent massive amounts of money over the years to try to achieve audio nirvana [which this side of Heaven, doesn't exist]. I've been in and around the audio [and now home theater audio] business for well over 50 years. There is not enough money in the Universe that can be spent to be able to totally and accurately reproduce live music other than with live music. Never happening. For one of my previous birthdays, my wife hired a 3 piece jazz combo to play in our home. It was that event that convinced me [and a fellow audiophile who has one of the very best 2 channel systems I have ever heard] that we are still a bazillion miles from our goal [as apposed to 2 bazillion miles 60 years ago]. It was also that event that sent me in a different [and a slightly more "fulfilling"] direction .
Want to attract more women? For 2 channel, not going to happen. Want to attract more younger men? For 2-channel, not going to happen. The days of a listener [alone] sitting in a semi dark room, with speakers and boxes and wires strewn all over the room, and him admiring his shiny metal equipment and pretending he can "see' an orchestra or female vocalist or rock band are gone. Put a fork in it. Done. In the next 5 years? No. Don't know how long but the party's over. And the cost of equipment being obscenely high has zero to do with it. If listening to/enjoying great music is REALLY our primary goal, the equipment cost won't keep folks from doing that. My daughter and son-in-law make 2 to 3 times the money I did in my best years; own 2 homes [one fully paid for]; drive $150,000 worth of cars. All of their "spare" time is spent in "activities". And for music, they go to live concerts.
Change the end objective and maybe, just maybe, there's hope [and this applies to home theater as well].
Add visuals [youtube music or BluRay concerts];
Add surround sound [e.g. Apple Atmos/Spatial Audio].
Hide the equipment to provide a less sterile, "equipment lab" environment;
Make the decor more inviting [forget all dark/black rooms];
Change the lighting;
In a home theater, dump the high back traditional theater chairs and replace with sofas, sectionals; coffee tables. Add a bar behind the seating.
Up-mix 2-channel to use all of the speakers in the room [Auro?]. Still a bazillion miles from live but certainly f far more immersive than 2 channels;
Get your spouse involved in the room [cosmetic] design process;
The end result of these recommendations [and probably more] should be an “involving, immersive, experience” and NOT replicating live music. not a theater or a music room. I've been in a very few [not necessarily perfect in the cosmetic category] . It can be transformational. And no, my room is most certainly not one of them - at least cosmetically [though I did dump the theater chairs for a sectional sofa].
YMMV.
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This industry has thrived on our excess… for much of our generations excess was generally viewed as more OK, was more acceptable and often celebrated and even seen as aspirational.
What happens if the circumstances for new generations see that level of excess as not being justifiable or ok. Not just the excessive spend on high end components but the obsessive impulsive gear change and the epic time throughout a life given over trying to perfect sound the way we have dedicated much of ourselves and very much loved to do.
Producing inexpensive and better more affordable lines in audio gear may not be sufficient to make new generations want to dedicate not only their funds but also sizeable chunks of their time resources and as much of their lives spent continuously obsessing over developing and improving their sound systems. They may simply buy gear and operate it and live with it playing music without obsessing over upgrading it.
Maybe the time and dedication and diminishing returns of our obsession has become a casualty of generationally changing values and a generational disconnect. Perhaps Ked will be the last audiophile standing. I imagine we would most all like to see the tradition keep alive and be continuous but it may just not or it may fall back waiting for different social conditions and go MIA for a generation or two till some body or some bots revive it and rediscover and reconnect with the fascination of crafting great sound for their music. Who knows.
What happens if the circumstances for new generations see that level of excess as not being justifiable or ok. Not just the excessive spend on high end components but the obsessive impulsive gear change and the epic time throughout a life given over trying to perfect sound the way we have dedicated much of ourselves and very much loved to do.
Producing inexpensive and better more affordable lines in audio gear may not be sufficient to make new generations want to dedicate not only their funds but also sizeable chunks of their time resources and as much of their lives spent continuously obsessing over developing and improving their sound systems. They may simply buy gear and operate it and live with it playing music without obsessing over upgrading it.
Maybe the time and dedication and diminishing returns of our obsession has become a casualty of generationally changing values and a generational disconnect. Perhaps Ked will be the last audiophile standing. I imagine we would most all like to see the tradition keep alive and be continuous but it may just not or it may fall back waiting for different social conditions and go MIA for a generation or two till some body or some bots revive it and rediscover and reconnect with the fascination of crafting great sound for their music. Who knows.
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Isn't the first job of a younger generation to reject the notions of their parents? These kids are just doing their job. 
Somewhat more seriously...name three future trends that you correctly identified 30 - 40 years before they happened. (if bottled water was one, did you buy stock?)
Somewhat more seriously...name three future trends that you correctly identified 30 - 40 years before they happened. (if bottled water was one, did you buy stock?)
My last comments on this subject:
I'm no soothsayer, and I had no clue what might happen in the future 40 years ago. But there are more than a few examples of companies [not individuals] who completely missed a huge future opportunity because of lack of vision/lack of forward looking: Kodak developed the first digital camera but then rejected the technology [so much for their film business]; At least two companies [Sears and Radio Shack with their huge catalog distribution] were perfectly positioned to own a huge piece of the up-coming on-line shopping business but neither had the vision - and we know their fate.
There should be visionary "trend readers" in the A/V hardware companies to facilitate how they can create new and expanded market opportunities. If, for example, super high end amp companies [some of whose products are the size of small refrigerators] ignore what is a very clear downward spiral in the high end 2-channel market, and choose to not develop products that can be used in other environments, they will, sooner rather than later, find themselves in a huge bind.
I have little doubt that there may be, for a very extended time frame, a very niche of a niche of a niche market for ultra high end 2-channel stuff. But fewer prospects, hence future sales and revenue, will further drive up costs, which will further reduce sales.
One company that comes to mind who did forecast [and adapt] for a better future, is Wisdom audio. Their initial products were huge in-room line source speakers [that were prohibitively expensive - and didn't sound very good, at least at audio shows]. They then developed room friendly, in-wall, "life style" solutions which has facilitated excellent growth in that company. You can not like their products, but their growth is excellent. I am sure there are others that fall into this same category.
I'm no soothsayer, and I had no clue what might happen in the future 40 years ago. But there are more than a few examples of companies [not individuals] who completely missed a huge future opportunity because of lack of vision/lack of forward looking: Kodak developed the first digital camera but then rejected the technology [so much for their film business]; At least two companies [Sears and Radio Shack with their huge catalog distribution] were perfectly positioned to own a huge piece of the up-coming on-line shopping business but neither had the vision - and we know their fate.
There should be visionary "trend readers" in the A/V hardware companies to facilitate how they can create new and expanded market opportunities. If, for example, super high end amp companies [some of whose products are the size of small refrigerators] ignore what is a very clear downward spiral in the high end 2-channel market, and choose to not develop products that can be used in other environments, they will, sooner rather than later, find themselves in a huge bind.
I have little doubt that there may be, for a very extended time frame, a very niche of a niche of a niche market for ultra high end 2-channel stuff. But fewer prospects, hence future sales and revenue, will further drive up costs, which will further reduce sales.
One company that comes to mind who did forecast [and adapt] for a better future, is Wisdom audio. Their initial products were huge in-room line source speakers [that were prohibitively expensive - and didn't sound very good, at least at audio shows]. They then developed room friendly, in-wall, "life style" solutions which has facilitated excellent growth in that company. You can not like their products, but their growth is excellent. I am sure there are others that fall into this same category.
ahem, then surely they are not audiophiles!
Why it is that the upgrade bug is a basic "value" of being an audiophile? With something like a fully active speaker (say, one that can be streamed to directly from a tablet or phone), couldn't it just be a case of finding what you like (as you say) and simply playing music?
Maybe generational reaction serves to steer things not so far from a middle path and as a pattern generates some balance. With broad generational themes perhaps it acts somewhat like a sine wave and then we might be more likely in ways to resonate better with our grandparents themes.Isn't the first job of a younger generation to reject the notions of their parents? These kids are just doing their job.
While I genuinely prefer to avoid generalisations when it comes to audiophiles I think the journey of discovery and drive to understand and improve is a characteristic that defines us as a group.
To buy a system and not evaluate it or be drawn to improve it might be a basic disqualification in terms of our pursuit… a sign of being a normal even
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Good point in avoiding generalizations, but an excellent one referring to discovery and drive to understand and improve. IMO is the essence of being an audiophile. Surely I am I not excluding those who buy a good system and settle, enjoying music. But the need to change brought by understanding and the enjoyment of improving is surely what drives most of us.
To buy a system and not evaluate it or be drawn to improve it might be a basic disqualification in terms of our pursuit… a sign of being a normal even
Many years ago, George Cardas explained that he had two systems. One was a simple system that he never touched. The other he tweaked incessantly. IIRC, he said audiophiles should have a simple system at home (in addition to their main system). The kind you never touch and just enjoy. It was an interesting comment and I believe it is true.While I genuinely prefer to avoid generalisations when it comes to audiophiles I think the journey of discovery and drive to understand and improve is a characteristic that defines us as a group.
To buy a system and not evaluate it or be drawn to improve it might be a basic disqualification in terms of our pursuit… a sign of being a normal even
Such simple systems can sound very good. They don't try too hard. Our simple system became a standard for me as I tried to achieve a realistic presentation in the main rig while also retaining the ability to bring musical enjoyment consistently. Higher resolution systems bring their challenges and it took a while before we no longer listened to the simple system and used the main rig for all listening, both casual and focused.
First question. Beyond me but certainly seems to be true for most. Look at the typical WBF member. Its their main "hobby" or one of them. And they have the disposable income to support their hobby and connect emotionally with music. Nothing wrong with that.
Second question. In its most basic, rudimentary form, that's what I do. I realize I am an "outlier" but for me, it "works".
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Hmmm ... Once the last audiophile turns off the lights, he takes Ked with him.
I think it's not so much about forward thinking or forecasting for the future as it is about being successful in doing so. In other words you need to be right with your gamble about markets yet to reveal themselves. Both Audio Research and Conrad Johnson bet big on "lifestyle" product lines for those wanting nice sound without audiophile obsession, and both failed miserably.
My current main system is essentially simple.
The music lover in me completely loves this system… though the audiophile in me refuses to completely retire from thinking about continuing exploring being an audiophile.
But that part doesn’t really get a word in every time I play music on this system as the music consistently takes me out with it.
How would I change my main setup… I wouldn’t now that I’ve got it to be as musically engaging as it is.
The only move the audiophile part of me might consider would be to try an another horn set setup with a turntable to make another (additional) system… and that’d be a full on audiophile move for me.
The thing holding me out is not the budget for the other setup as I have everything already except the turntable and a phono stage. It’s the challenge of the music library… building a library from scratch again that I’d be happy with. The music lover part of me wouldn’t be satisfied with second tier performances just to get me back into an analogue setup again.
Either way I only want to do simple one source systems from now on for a range of reasons built around optimising and not creating a circumstance where I’m comparing two different sources in the same rig and making any constraints in any or all the sources more overt.
Music engagement is an audiophile philosophers stone for me built on working with expectations and as part of that the alchemy of simplicity just happily seems to work for me.
Perhaps $ millions invested in the dedicated sound room, power supply, and megabuck system won’t survive. Perhaps we need to rethink what it is we enjoy most from this hobby and find a way of trimming it down to the bare basics that can still provide it.
Obviously, gear heads won’t understand, but I love great music played over an analogue rig that gives me the most realistic tones and plenty of PRaT in a small unassuming package that would literally shock and amaze the uninitiated.
Just wondering, perhaps something like this:
mono record player
Imagine it being built with a studio EMT idler wheel turntable, EMT tonearm and EMT (or Miyajima) monaural cartridge and step up transformer, playing into a nice little 45 Integrated monaural SET and an AER 8” driver (with ltd. Horn loading) behind the grill cloth. One could bring junior into a normal living room, take some old mono Tamla Motown LP from under the unit and play it for the lad, dismissing it as old technology that we used to listen to in the good old days… and then watch his eyes when the music plays.
Obviously, gear heads won’t understand, but I love great music played over an analogue rig that gives me the most realistic tones and plenty of PRaT in a small unassuming package that would literally shock and amaze the uninitiated.
Just wondering, perhaps something like this:
mono record player
Imagine it being built with a studio EMT idler wheel turntable, EMT tonearm and EMT (or Miyajima) monaural cartridge and step up transformer, playing into a nice little 45 Integrated monaural SET and an AER 8” driver (with ltd. Horn loading) behind the grill cloth. One could bring junior into a normal living room, take some old mono Tamla Motown LP from under the unit and play it for the lad, dismissing it as old technology that we used to listen to in the good old days… and then watch his eyes when the music plays.
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A single source simple system would be currently my dream system, only money separates me from it ...
I keep my sources complementary, except for a few recordings in tape I still keep for reference to avoid gong in audiophile divagation ...
Vinyl stays just for jazz and the "nostalgia recordings" - those that became part of my life for decades. I deliberated sold to a goof friend all but just a few classic recordings that I could not part for exceptional reasons - why and when I got them, moments I associate with them.
Unfortunately I found that simplicity is expensive in this hobby. I keep my systems complex to optimize value for money. Please note that I get part of my gear used.
I’ve run with two systems for much of my time over the last few decades, it allows the two setups to be functionally different with slightly different objectives.
I’ve streamlined myself to simple single source as I find that works better for me ultimately. When I’ve tried more sources, speakers or amps in the one space with the idea of swapping between at times I usually find it sets up a real awareness in a sense of compromise in making the choice to use one or the other. It just works for me to have it be room and function specific so going to the space sets up the expectations about what I’m doing and it’s a focussed optimised outcome with its own aims. I think there’s a cost effectiveness in that for me because it makes a destination more possible given my tendency to drive it to be better at its purpose when constraints are more apparent and then working within the more end of spend constraints of my budget.
I’ve always had a main setup for two channel music only… it gets the most use. These days its dedicated to listen to all scales of jazz or classical but I can play alternative music when I’m taken there but now that’s more occasionally.
The purpose of the second setup has varied… usually it’s been out in open shared space at home and plays music at daytimes or at dinner, sometimes it has included in as a tv sound system and occasionally to watch music videos, at various times I’ve had a headphone option as well but that tends to not really get used. I like the idea of headphone setups but these days that’s only when I’m out and about. Music in that shared space tends to be a bit more diverse and stretches more often to EDM, RnB, jazz, soul and large orchestral music.
If life allows it would be my choice for an analogue setup and still be about shared music. Will have to see how that unfolds if an opportunity for a library of vinyl opens up. The main rig is mostly a listening retreat for more focussed music listening and for regular music discovery for me.
I’ve had plenty of (less than) great ideas about stretching functionality to more complex setups but have found simple single source usage in different spaces does end up being what I ultimately gravitate towards.
These days I’m pared back to enjoying running two first order two way horn in OB with SET… that just works for me though I likely will next run with OB subs as well in the large open space setup. That’s the next step now that for one setup a destination has arrived.
For me at least the simple/complex conundrum has been a cycle… started out super simple… a record player, amp and speakers or a radio and moved to increasingly complex and diverse and now full cycle and swinging back and a return to keeping it as real and as simple as I can.
I’ve streamlined myself to simple single source as I find that works better for me ultimately. When I’ve tried more sources, speakers or amps in the one space with the idea of swapping between at times I usually find it sets up a real awareness in a sense of compromise in making the choice to use one or the other. It just works for me to have it be room and function specific so going to the space sets up the expectations about what I’m doing and it’s a focussed optimised outcome with its own aims. I think there’s a cost effectiveness in that for me because it makes a destination more possible given my tendency to drive it to be better at its purpose when constraints are more apparent and then working within the more end of spend constraints of my budget.
I’ve always had a main setup for two channel music only… it gets the most use. These days its dedicated to listen to all scales of jazz or classical but I can play alternative music when I’m taken there but now that’s more occasionally.
The purpose of the second setup has varied… usually it’s been out in open shared space at home and plays music at daytimes or at dinner, sometimes it has included in as a tv sound system and occasionally to watch music videos, at various times I’ve had a headphone option as well but that tends to not really get used. I like the idea of headphone setups but these days that’s only when I’m out and about. Music in that shared space tends to be a bit more diverse and stretches more often to EDM, RnB, jazz, soul and large orchestral music.
If life allows it would be my choice for an analogue setup and still be about shared music. Will have to see how that unfolds if an opportunity for a library of vinyl opens up. The main rig is mostly a listening retreat for more focussed music listening and for regular music discovery for me.
I’ve had plenty of (less than) great ideas about stretching functionality to more complex setups but have found simple single source usage in different spaces does end up being what I ultimately gravitate towards.
These days I’m pared back to enjoying running two first order two way horn in OB with SET… that just works for me though I likely will next run with OB subs as well in the large open space setup. That’s the next step now that for one setup a destination has arrived.
For me at least the simple/complex conundrum has been a cycle… started out super simple… a record player, amp and speakers or a radio and moved to increasingly complex and diverse and now full cycle and swinging back and a return to keeping it as real and as simple as I can.
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"
What I do know is this- ANYONE is dying once you stop enjoying music, regardless of the source!
Is Audiophilia a Dying Hobby ....?"
Answer: yes, and with good reason- constantly increasing prices for incremental performance benefit.I loved this! For me, even though I have a big bucks system (that is always being tweaked) in a great room, on some level it does not provide the same enjoyment as my puny Sonus Move 2 that I listen to out by the hot tub regularly. Not sure I understand why!
What I do know is this- ANYONE is dying once you stop enjoying music, regardless of the source!
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Pretty simple answer I think. You are not distracted by / obsessed with sound quality. All that remains is music.
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