Is Audiophilia a Dying Hobby or Just in Need of a Tune-Up?

[TonyW]

I bought a small, 4” Newtonian Telescope for my kids in the early 1990’s. We had some good times in the back yard looking at the moon and finding moons around Jupiter and Saturn. I told a colleague at work I was thinking of getting a more expensive telescope and he said, “Why bother?” I can look at the sky through the internet.” I never bought another telescope. It was fun seeing the planets with our own eyes and one of my sons travels to remotes places now to do astrophotography. Another hobby that can get expensive.

My perception is that HiFi hit its peak in the 1990s. Vinyl was almost out of business and CD sales were near their peak. B&M Stores were in rapid decline. What I see today is similar to the Horse Buggy and Horse Saddle- the demise of high volume manufacturers leaving only the boutique, hand crafted high end, high cost products. The equestrian industry exists today but not for the novice or feint of heart. We had a horse growing up on a farm and frankly, I’d ride a motorcycle before I’d get on another horse. And sure, they have had a resurgence now and then. Hifi, vinyl will follow that too- perhaps even CDs. So what will happen to Hifi? I see sales growth settling in at a minimally sustainable level at some point but the cost of entry will continue to rise. Just like mechanical watches- the winner is the watchmaker who can click with the current generation of spenders to demonstrate relevance and prestige in their product.

Benjamin Franklin had no idea his electricity experiments would lead to a HIFi industry, a global telecommunications system or AI. Just as we can only speculate where technology will take us. AM Radio was invented and marketed fairly quickly. With mobility on the rise and the world getting smaller, wireless communication was a need waiting for a solution. By 1920 AM Radio exploded on the market. It wasn’t long before the AM Radio console dominated living rooms. Even car radios were in production by the early 1920’s. And this is when the HiFi industry was born. Televisions started supplanting the radio in living rooms by the 1950s. AM radio has been in decline ever since but is still hanging on 115 years later. Surprisingly, most cars today still have an AM Radio. I haven’t listened to an AM radio station since the early 1970s.

If I were to speculate about the future of HiFi: Like i said, it will level off at some point as a certain percentage of hobbyist continue the quest for ultimate sound. I don’t know anything about HAM radio but I imagine it is on the same trajectory. I see the stumbling beginnings of VR Headsets as the future. Maybe in 50 years or 100 years from now, VR will be integrated into peoples lives much like the internet and electricity is to us today. I imagine a home, the living space in the future will look much different than our homes today. Lamps, TV screens will be gone. Rooms will have ambient lighting that seems to come from nowhere. Pictures and decorations will be hanging on the walls but these will also be anchor points for VR visualization. Imaging will be in 3D along with the sound. Imagine watching a stage play in your living room with friends and it looks like you are actually sitting in a theater. All of this with just a voice request.

Still, some will holdout for yesteryear with their antique lamps and Hifi equipment. But most will be either collectors or the very wealthy.

 

[A-Line]

I bought a small, 4” Newtonian Telescope for my kids in the early 1990’s. We had some good times in the back yard looking at the moon and finding moons around Jupiter and Saturn. I told a colleague at work I was thinking of getting a more expensive telescope and he said, “Why bother?” I can look at the sky through the internet.” I never bought another telescope. It was fun seeing the planets with our own eyes and one of my sons travels to remotes places now to do astrophotography. Another hobby that can get expensive.

My perception is that HiFi hit its peak in the 1990s. Vinyl was almost out of business and CD sales were near their peak. B&M Stores were in rapid decline. What I see today is similar to the Horse Buggy and Horse Saddle- the demise of high volume manufacturers leaving only the boutique, hand crafted high end, high cost products. The equestrian industry exists today but not for the novice or feint of heart. We had a horse growing up on a farm and frankly, I’d ride a motorcycle before I’d get on another horse. And sure, they have had a resurgence now and then. Hifi, vinyl will follow that too- perhaps even CDs. So what will happen to Hifi? I see sales growth settling in at a minimally sustainable level at some point but the cost of entry will continue to rise. Just like mechanical watches- the winner is the watchmaker who can click with the current generation of spenders to demonstrate relevance and prestige in their product.

Benjamin Franklin had no idea his electricity experiments would lead to a HIFi industry, a global telecommunications system or AI. Just as we can only speculate where technology will take us. AM Radio was invented and marketed fairly quickly. With mobility on the rise and the world getting smaller, wireless communication was a need waiting for a solution. By 1920 AM Radio exploded on the market. It wasn’t long before the AM Radio console dominated living rooms. Even car radios were in production by the early 1920’s. And this is when the HiFi industry was born. Televisions started supplanting the radio in living rooms by the 1950s. AM radio has been in decline ever since but is still hanging on 115 years later. Surprisingly, most cars today still have an AM Radio. I haven’t listened to an AM radio station since the early 1970s.

If I were to speculate about the future of HiFi: Like i said, it will level off at some point as a certain percentage of hobbyist continue the quest for ultimate sound. I don’t know anything about HAM radio but I imagine it is on the same trajectory. I see the stumbling beginnings of VR Headsets as the future. Maybe in 50 years or 100 years from now, VR will be integrated into peoples lives much like the internet and electricity is to us today. I imagine a home, the living space in the future will look much different than our homes today. Lamps, TV screens will be gone. Rooms will have ambient lighting that seems to come from nowhere. Pictures and decorations will be hanging on the walls but these will also be anchor points for VR visualization. Imaging will be in 3D along with the sound. Imagine watching a stage play in your living room with friends and it looks like you are actually sitting in a theater. All of this with just a voice request.

Still, some will holdout for yesteryear with their antique lamps and Hifi equipment. But most will be either collectors or the very wealthy.

Cultural norms & desires have changed.

Radio used to be a major source of entertainment for families at one point. Movies became a new thing at theaters. Mono became stereo and 3D movies started showing up. Lots of outdoor sports too. All of these activities involved social gatherings of other people.

I'm into amature astronomy as my other hobby. There's more cottage companies that support amature astronomy than there are that support high-end audio. The experience that you had with your kids and your new telescope was special, you could have just as easily gone on the Internet to look at lunar and planetary photos but that wouldn't have been the same. What's the experience of acquiring a new telescope and all of the accessories for a evening of live viewing with your kids really worth vs going the Internet to view photos instead?

Nowadays people socially isolated, even in a big city, mainly on their cell phones. How people interact with each other have changed a lot over last 70 years or so. What kinds of experiences are people looking for these days are what are they willing to pay for those experiences?

Now amature astronomy & high-end audio are considered interesting hobbies but too pricey for most to pursue at length.
Time, dedication, patience, energy, and money are all required to pursue any meaningful hobby and sadly most of society is missing most if not all of those attributes...

Just my opinions.

 

[gleeds]

All true, but let's not write an obituary for HiFi just yet. I am working on a project offering affordable yet genuine hi-fi components in concert with my high-end practice. I'm unsure if we will use a direct-to-consumer 2-tier model, but given the newest generation's preference (and comfort with) this business model, I am leaning that way.

Senna Sound is a new audio company being launched inside the House of Trafomatic in Serbia. Nemanja Cokic, son of Sasa, is the brand's owner, and his early work, including pre-power and phono components, shows great promise. While not yet firm for the US, it will allow a young audiophile to build a great system, including cables, electronics, loudspeaker, and source, for well under 10K. Nemanja, a terrific engineer in his own right in his 20s, is undertaking this project to create a new generation of audiophiles.

Let's wish Nemanja every success and encourage younger music lovers to jump in the pool as the "water is warm."

 

[gleeds]

PS Senna Sound electronics are solid-state with a warm, musical tube voicing.
45 watts/channel @8ohms and 70 watts/channel @4 ohms

 

[hb22]

All true, but let's not write an obituary for HiFi just yet. I am working on a project offering affordable yet genuine hi-fi components in concert with my high-end practice. I'm unsure if we will use a direct-to-consumer 2-tier model, but given the newest generation's preference (and comfort with) this business model, I am leaning that way.

Senna Sound is a new audio company being launched inside the House of Trafomatic in Serbia. Nemanja Cokic, son of Sasa, is the brand's owner, and his early work, including pre-power and phono components, shows great promise. While not yet firm for the US, it will allow a young audiophile to build a great system, including cables, electronics, loudspeaker, and source, for well under 10K. Nemanja, a terrific engineer in his own right in his 20s, is undertaking this project to create a new generation of audiophiles.

Let's wish Nemanja every success and encourage younger music lovers to jump in the pool as the "water is warm."



View attachment 145095View attachment 145096

Look, this is a top-notch product and technology, with extreme tolerances, excellent workmanship and in certain respects a reference for only 6,000 euros!!But sales have dropped significantly...

 

[PYP]

I see the stumbling beginnings of VR Headsets as the future. Maybe in 50 years or 100 years from now, VR will be integrated into peoples lives much like the internet and electricity is to us today. I imagine a home, the living space in the future will look much different than our homes today. Lamps, TV screens will be gone. Rooms will have ambient lighting that seems to come from nowhere. Pictures and decorations will be hanging on the walls but these will also be anchor points for VR visualization. Imaging will be in 3D along with the sound. Imagine watching a stage play in your living room with friends and it looks like you are actually sitting in a theater. All of this with just a voice request.

Honda's 0 series conceptual EV cars seem to point to a possible future. In this video, the car becomes an AI friend to the driver: https://0.honda/en/models/?from=navi_header#SALOON

AI will know what music you like and the sound you prefer and will accommodate. Will we miss the endless debates about tubes vs. solid state? Hard to tell. At least @Lee will have Sofia as a listening buddy (and, let's face it, AI is his only hope ). Could the future be a more friendly version of Blade Runner 2049?

 

[gleeds]

Look, this is a top-notch product and technology, with extreme tolerances, excellent workmanship and in certain respects a reference for only 6,000 euros!!But sales have dropped significantly...View attachment 145099

I love this product and have long admired its purity of design and excellent build quality. That said, six thousand euros is nearly $7000 once it lands in the US. A quick search revealed that one retailer (quasi-distributor) in the US has listed it for sale at $7900.

This is not a Rega or Project and, therefore, not affordable as part of an entry-level system for a first-time younger generation buyer. In some ways, it is too inexpensive to be taken seriously against tables at twice the price, which I'm confident it competes against, an issue of perception versus actual quality.

As a US importer, I have found that small companies that make high-value products like this will always struggle unless they have a strong marketing team and one or more seasoned brand ambassadors worldwide to keep their products top of mind for buyers.

 

[Synaxis]

As a US importer, I have found that small companies that make high-value products like this will always struggle unless they have a strong marketing team and one or more seasoned brand ambassadors worldwide to keep their products top of mind for buyers.

Don't forget their need for strong, competent distributers like yourself. Distributors can make or break a company.

There are far too many great boutique brands that use incompetent and unprofessional distributors to their own detriment.

I'm always amazed behind the scenes the vast difference in competence and ability between distributors.

 

[TonyW]

The average income in the USA is $66k/yr. The average house costs $419k and the average new car now costs $50k. A couple earning, say $132k (2 times the average) can afford a $330k house and for a single new car they will be paying about $900/month for the car and add another $200 for insurance. They have a $4000/month house payment including insurance and taxes. Take out food and utilities and clothes, and income tax and they have about $900/month left over and that is without putting away some savings. Where is there room for a hifi costing even a minimal $10k?

 

[Newton John]

I don't have a crystal ball to predict the future, but I can't see why audiophilia would necessarily die. The young people I know love music and vinyl records.

However, it does seem likely that future generations reaching retirement age will have less disposable funds from pension pots, inheritance, houses, investments and the like than many Boomers are currently enjoying.

Therefore, HiFi manufacturers will have an incentive to produce more affordable high end gear. Who's to say that technological advances won't make that possible.

 

[tony22]

Therefore, HiFi manufacturers will have an incentive to produce more affordable high end gear

Hmm. I wonder when they're going to get that message? It seems (to me, anyway) the bulk of what is construed as the high end industry is at the moment running full bore at trying to get as much money from the richest hobbyists with the most expensive gear they can come up with. A bit of exaggerated sarcasm, yes, but there's a bit of annoying truth to me in my sarcasm. Others may feel differently.

Maybe I'm just in a cranky mood this morning.

 

[Newton John]

Hmm. I wonder when they're going to get that message? It seems (to me, anyway) the bulk of what is construed as the high end industry is at the moment running full bore at trying to get as much money from the richest hobbyists with the most expensive gear they can come up with. A bit of exaggerated sarcasm, yes, but there's a bit of annoying truth to me in my sarcasm. Others may feel differently.

Maybe I'm just in a cranky mood this morning.

They’ll get the message when it starts to hit their bottom line.

All they are doing is segmenting the market to maximise profit from each segment. In that respect, hifi is no different from any other sector. It benefits everyone because each segment gets what they want at a price they can afford and the manufacturers stay in business.

 

[tony22]

They’ll get the message when it starts to hit their bottom line.

All they are doing is segmenting the market to maximise profit from each segment. In that respect, hifi is no different from any other sector. It benefits everyone because each segment gets what they want at a price they can afford and the manufacturers stay in business.

While that sounds nice, I think it's a little too generous. How many manufacturers with the bulk of their gear, say, starting at $20K and going rapidly upward from there seem to be going out of their way at putting their capital into gear that would sell for less than $10K (preferably $5K)?

 

[TonyW]

You guys act like high dollar hifi is something new. It’s not new. Even going back to the 1950s Hifi was expensive. It has always been an expensive hobby. What you might be thinking of is in the mid 1970s the Japanese manufacturers began flooding the US market with cheap electronics from CB Radios to TVs and Stereos. My parents had a basic record player when I was growing up in the 60s. My uncle had a hifi console and then got a pioneer receiver and Dual turntable in the early 70s. That was a big deal. By 1977 I was able to afford a used Kenwood stereo receiver (32 W/ch) with a couple of 2 way speakers as a college student. Something I could have never afforded a decade earlier as a college student.

I’ve seen over the decades that luxury items follow inflation most of the time. Cars for a couple of decades stayed below inflation even with added safety and emissions content. I saw the Goldmund Reference Turntable, a floor stander, at the 1989 CES and it was priced at $24,000. That would be like $61,000 today. I remember it because I couldn’t imagine then how a turntable could cost that much. Still don’t. The ARC top of the line Preamp in 1989 was the SP-15. I owned one for 20 years. It cost $5800 in 1989 or about $15k today. Not too far off ARC’s current line of preamps. Their Reference Line came out later in the 1990s. The Wilson Watt/Puppy in 1996, which is the first time I heard Wilson speakers cost $17k back then. That is equivalent to $34,000 today. The new Watt/Puppy speaker pricing today comes in pretty close. I never followed McIntosh gear. I just knew going back to the 70s it was expensive gear. I’m sure their prices have followed inflation save for newer or larger beastly designs. I also recall crazy prices for cables at the 1989 CES. My buddy bought a pair of MIT speaker cables back then for $700, or $1800 today.

Yes, manufacturers have expanded into the rarified air with their top reference line of components; but only because there is a market for it. But there is still plenty of choices for hifi gear with much more down to earth pricing. I attended the 2022 Axpona. I thought the pricing was breathtaking- just like in 1989.

 

[tony22]

I’ve seen over the decades that luxury items follow inflation most of the time.

Most of us on WBF are more or less in the same age group, Tony (great name, BTW! ). My own seat of the pants assessment is that if one were to be able to compare a bell curve distribution of prices for high end gear in the 70s, 80s, 90s, and so on, it’s likely the peak of that curve would be getting pushed further and further to the right relative to median income. I have no proof whatsoever. It just kind of feels that way - and I can buy way more expensive stuff now than I could 40 or 50 years ago!

 

[Ted Denney III]

Most of us on WBF are more or less in the same age group, Tony (great name, BTW! ). My own seat of the pants assessment is that if one were to be able to compare a bell curve distribution of prices for high end gear in the 70s, 80s, 90s, and so on, it’s likely the peak of that curve would be getting pushed further and further to the right relative to median income. I have no proof whatsoever. It just kind of feels that way - and I can buy way more expensive stuff now than I could 40 or 50 years ago!

As a manufacturer, I can tell you that the products most consumers want to buy are at the higher price points. Even if you have great affordable products, most consumers want expensive, top-of-the-line, highest-performance gear they can possibly afford. Manufacturers that cater to value-focused consumers are suffering very low numbers right now.

 

[TonyW]

As a manufacturer, I can tell you that the products most consumers want to buy are at the higher price points. Even if you have great affordable products, most consumers want expensive, top-of-the-line, highest-performance gear they can possibly afford. Manufacturers that cater to value-focused consumers are suffering very low numbers right now.

If I could afford an airplane I would want a rocket ship.

 

[Ted Denney III]

If I could afford an airplane I would want a rocket ship.

Same. For me, life is interesting when pushing goals, achieving benchmarks, and moving ever higher. It’s likely why I’ll never retire—what the h*ll would I do with myself? I can only race so many cars and motorcycles. The thrill of moving the ball forward and raising the bar—that’s what drives a lot of men. Definitely, the men who buy extreme high-end audio; a great many of them fall into this category.

 

[exupgh12]

Same. For me, life is interesting when pushing goals, achieving benchmarks, and moving ever higher. It’s likely why I’ll never retire—what the h*ll would I do with myself? I can only race so many cars and motorcycles. The thrill of moving the ball forward and raising the bar—that’s what drives a lot of men. Definitely, the men who buy extreme high-end audio; a great many of them fall into this category.

Go climbed the Everest or K2, you can keep riding and driving in later years.

 

[Ted Denney III]

Go climbed the Everest or K2, you can keep riding and driving in later years.

Ten years ago, I hiked the Pacific Crest Trail. Ten years prior to that, I sailed from San Francisco to Hawaii and then from Hawaii to the South Pacific single-handed. Both of those arduous journeys rid me of any desire to do serious mountain trekking or blue-water single-handed sailing ever again. In fact, the only consistent challenge I have engaged in since 1992 has been my company—the one thing that’s never gotten old, unlike me.