Introducing Olympus & Olympus I/O - A new perspective on modern music playback

[Moladiego]

I also cannot speak for Emile but I would hope for both sw (no cost) and hw (with appropriate costs).
Since the USB is limiting, i think a replacement card with alternative outputs could get some of that IO goodness into the extreme. I agree that 200% is wishful thinking if you only consider sw, but why limit our options here

Note: I have ZERO inside information but getting rid of USB seems like a appealing path forward to me. Of course, YMMV.

Now back to your regular Olympus topics

I know nothing about technology but was informed that i2s is the only digital format that is not converted and, if implemented masterfully, not filtered. Therefore, I believe that XDMI is i2s in essence. All other formats, USB, SPDIF, AES/EBU, involves heavy conversion and filtering, which necessarily degrades SQ. I can tell only from my listening experience. I got the feeling from my experience with the latest NSM setup 17/19 that it was a kind of tuning or filtering, gaining in some areas (transparency and immediacy) but losing in others (depth and musicality, for want of a better word, sound becoming hard and hard-edged; I could not live with it and reverted to Jan 2024 build). I got the feeling from this experience that there is only so much one can do with USB - one can tune the sound, but it is limited. Don't know what has happened, but Roon is now very competitive in SQ to NSM Jan 2024 version; I will do focused comparison this weekend. Taiko has done a lot in both software (XDMS/NSM) and hardware (Switch, Router, DCD) areas, and I am sure that it can still do more. But I am afraid that all such improvements are merely incremental and cannot change the basic character of USB/SPDIF/AES-EBU. The most critical part of Olympus is its XDMI board; the others are icings on that top IMHO. Emile has informed that it would cost more to retrofit Extreme with the XDMI board than the cost of a new Olympus. The XDMI board is the hardware (with matching software) that separates it from the rest. I believe what Emile intimated, XDMI represents a different kind of SQ, not a mere improvement to Extreme's SQ. However, one can still significantly change the SQ of traditional digital format, again from my experience. For instance, my DIY guy did a "purist" improvement to my DVD player's SPDIF output, using his "direct coupling" approach (bypassing all transformers and capacitors in the signal path of the SPDIF); the modded SPDIF is no longer a 75 ohm output. Even though the receiving DAC's SPIDF input could not be modded in the same way (because he did not have the schematics or would not run the risk of damaging the expensive DAC), I still heard a very significant uptick in SQ when I used a proprietary ribbon cable with resistor network built in (to maximize optimal impedance with the use of a test box to determine such optimal impedance). I think this is an area Taiko can do to equip Extreme with a "purist" SPDIF output (USB is probably a lost cause). If the DAC manufacturer can do the same "purist" mod to its SPDIF input, there would be a very significant SQ improvement (but then they would have abandoned the 75-ohm standard for SPDIF, which the manufacturer may not want to do in order to maintain compatibility with other digital devices). [Side note: SPDIF would be limited to PCM up to 24/192, no DSD compatibility; I hope recording companies would abandon DSD and limit PCM to 24/96 at most, ideally 24/44.1 or 24/88.2, but this is a mere opinion because I know nothing about technology.]

 

[cat6man]

I know nothing about technology but was informed that i2s is the only digital format that is not converted and, if implemented masterfully, not filtered. Therefore, I believe that XDMI is i2s in essence. All other formats, USB, SPDIF, AES/EBU, involves heavy conversion and filtering, which necessarily degrades SQ. I can tell only from my listening experience. I got the feeling from my experience with the latest NSM setup 17/19 that it was a kind of tuning or filtering, gaining in some areas (transparency and immediacy) but losing in others (depth and musicality, for want of a better word, sound becoming hard and hard-edged; I could not live with it and reverted to Jan 2024 build). I got the feeling from this experience that there is only so much one can do with USB - one can tune the sound, but it is limited. Don't know what has happened, but Roon is now very competitive in SQ to NSM Jan 2024 version; I will do focused comparison this weekend. Taiko has done a lot in both software (XDMS/NSM) and hardware (Switch, Router, DCD) areas, and I am sure that it can still do more. But I am afraid that all such improvements are merely incremental and cannot change the basic character of USB/SPDIF/AES-EBU. The most critical part of Olympus is its XDMI board; the others are icings on that top IMHO. Emile has informed that it would cost more to retrofit Extreme with the XDMI board than the cost of a new Olympus. The XDMI board is the hardware (with matching software) that separates it from the rest. I believe what Emile intimated, XDMI represents a different kind of SQ, not a mere improvement to Extreme's SQ. However, one can still significantly change the SQ of traditional digital format, again from my experience. For instance, my DIY guy did a "purist" improvement to my DVD player's SPDIF output, using his "direct coupling" approach (bypassing all transformers and capacitors in the signal path of the SPDIF); the modded SPDIF is no longer a 75 ohm output. Even though the receiving DAC's SPIDF input could not be modded in the same way (because he did not have the schematics or would not run the risk of damaging the expensive DAC), I still heard a very significant uptick in SQ when I used a proprietary ribbon cable with resistor network built in (to maximize optimal impedance with the use of a test box to determine such optimal impedance). I think this is an area Taiko can do to equip Extreme with a "purist" SPDIF output (USB is probably a lost cause). If the DAC manufacturer can do the same "purist" mod to its SPDIF input, there would be a very significant SQ improvement (but then they would have abandoned the 75-ohm standard for SPDIF, which the manufacturer may not want to do in order to maintain compatibility with other digital devices). [Side note: SPDIF would be limited to PCM up to 24/192, no DSD compatibility; I hope recording companies would abandon DSD and limit PCM to 24/96 at most, ideally 24/44.1 or 24/88.2, but this is a mere opinion because I know nothing about technology.]

I agree with you on the setup17/19 SQ and have also reverted to Jan11, but that is not necessarily due to the USB interface.

I'd be very happy with an optimized AES/ebu replacing the USB card. Totaldac claims a purist/no limitation AES/ebu input.

While a full BPS may not be practical, maybe a smaller one could power a new AES/ebu card. Since the IO gets the i2s from the extreme via xdms, the i2s could go straight to a new AES/ebu card. And this new card could have analog out as well.

I see lots of potential and only Taiko knows what is feasible for a sane level of upgrade (<< the cost of adding an IO for x% of the SQ gain). I eagerly await further news on evolution of the extreme.

I am speculating on what may be possible based on my current understanding of a couple of years worth of posts here on wbf.....and since the Olympus feedback has yet to start and things were getting a little slow here....

 

[Steve Williams]

I know nothing about technology but was informed that i2s is the only digital format that is not converted and, if implemented masterfully, not filtered. Therefore, I believe that XDMI is i2s in essence. All other formats, USB, SPDIF, AES/EBU, involves heavy conversion and filtering, which necessarily degrades SQ. I can tell only from my listening experience. I got the feeling from my experience with the latest NSM setup 17/19 that it was a kind of tuning or filtering, gaining in some areas (transparency and immediacy) but losing in others (depth and musicality, for want of a better word, sound becoming hard and hard-edged; I could not live with it and reverted to Jan 2024 build). I got the feeling from this experience that there is only so much one can do with USB - one can tune the sound, but it is limited. Don't know what has happened, but Roon is now very competitive in SQ to NSM Jan 2024 version; I will do focused comparison this weekend. Taiko has done a lot in both software (XDMS/NSM) and hardware (Switch, Router, DCD) areas, and I am sure that it can still do more. But I am afraid that all such improvements are merely incremental and cannot change the basic character of USB/SPDIF/AES-EBU. The most critical part of Olympus is its XDMI board; the others are icings on that top IMHO. Emile has informed that it would cost more to retrofit Extreme with the XDMI board than the cost of a new Olympus. The XDMI board is the hardware (with matching software) that separates it from the rest. I believe what Emile intimated, XDMI represents a different kind of SQ, not a mere improvement to Extreme's SQ. However, one can still significantly change the SQ of traditional digital format, again from my experience. For instance, my DIY guy did a "purist" improvement to my DVD player's SPDIF output, using his "direct coupling" approach (bypassing all transformers and capacitors in the signal path of the SPDIF); the modded SPDIF is no longer a 75 ohm output. Even though the receiving DAC's SPIDF input could not be modded in the same way (because he did not have the schematics or would not run the risk of damaging the expensive DAC), I still heard a very significant uptick in SQ when I used a proprietary ribbon cable with resistor network built in (to maximize optimal impedance with the use of a test box to determine such optimal impedance). I think this is an area Taiko can do to equip Extreme with a "purist" SPDIF output (USB is probably a lost cause). If the DAC manufacturer can do the same "purist" mod to its SPDIF input, there would be a very significant SQ improvement (but then they would have abandoned the 75-ohm standard for SPDIF, which the manufacturer may not want to do in order to maintain compatibility with other digital devices). [Side note: SPDIF would be limited to PCM up to 24/192, no DSD compatibility; I hope recording companies would abandon DSD and limit PCM to 24/96 at most, ideally 24/44.1 or 24/88.2, but this is a mere opinion because I know nothing about technology.]

You’re flat out wrong. XDMI iis a new interface designed by Taiko and from everything I read it will supplant as an audiophile choice all existing interfaces. It is not i2s and to ask for explanation from Emile is asking for proprietary information so speculate all you want

 

[Moladiego]

You’re flat out wrong. XDMI iis a new interface designed by Taiko and from everything I read it will supplant as an audiophile choice all existing interfaces. It is not i2s and to ask for explanation from Emile is asking for proprietary information so speculate all you want

I want @Taiko Audio Emil to tell me that I am flat out wrong. Because i2s is the ONLY known format that is NATIVE, not converted, I believe that XDMI has to be in essence i2s but is optimized in i2s implementation (at least in the best way known to Taiko). PS Audio's i2s in the output format of HDMI and RJ 45 is i2s but its implementation is terrible (involving conversion from SE to balanced back to SE; that is what my DIY guy told me). My guy's i2s implementation involves no conversion or filtering (the 4 i2s signals, master clock, bit clock, word or L/R clock, data) directly plucked from the DVD player's circuit board and connected directly to the outputs). He would not be able to do the same to the Extreme's circuit board because in his view there are no broken-out i2s signals there (because there is no need for separating audio signal on the board, unlike the DVD player's). Olympus was designed from scratch with its chips separating the audio signals into individual i2s signals (I believe). The implementation and the output interface are new, but not the underlying i2s structure (which is NATIVE to the digital circuit board; the circuit board only communicates in i2s, not "XDMI"). XDMI is not a new digital format, but a new implementation of i2s. Emile, please tell me I am wrong, and I will mum up.

 

[joet]

I went back and reread Emile's posts. In summary, yes, DACs receive i2s. But i2s at a distance is highly prone to jitter. So other digital formats, SPDIF and AES/EBU (in essence balanced SPDIF) and then USB were created to allow i2s to travel distances. However, there are limitations to all of them. XDMI is Emile's solution to the i2s travel issue that we're anticipating will solve the limitations. However, according to Emile's posts, even with XDMI, the DAC receives an i2s signal.

 

[Taiko Audio]

You do indeed need I2S at some point to interface with current technology DACs, but this is limited to about half an inch of PCB tracing, as short as we could make it. XDMI native implementations, the Lampizator Link included, are NOT I2S based.

 

[Moladiego]

You do indeed need I2S at some point to interface with current technology DACs, but this is limited to about half an inch of PCB tracing, as short as we could make it. XDMI native implementations, the Lampizator Link included, are NOT I2S based.

Then I plead guilty if you mean to say that the XDMI involves none of the i2s signals, master clock, bit clock, word clock and data. If so, it is a revolution because you have introduced a new digital format to the world, not merely implementation. If so, I am delighted that I am wrong because the uptick could be much larger than the uptick from my DVD transport's "purist" implementation of i2s (of course the transport is limited further by inferior power supplier etc.). Thanks, Emile!

 

[Moladiego]

Then I plead guilty if you mean to say that the XDMI involves none of the i2s signals, master clock, bit clock, word clock and data. If so, it is a revolution because you have introduced a new digital format to the world, not merely implementation. If so, I am delighted that I am wrong because the uptick could be much larger than the uptick from my DVD transport's "purist" implementation of i2s (of course the transport is limited further by inferior power supplier etc.). Thanks, Emile!

@Taiko Audio I read your reply again, which is nuanced. The underlying signal path in O appears still to be i2s (1/2 inch), but the link with Horizon is not the 4 i2s signals + ground. So I am not sure XDMI is a brave new digital format.

 

[Steve Williams]

It is a brave new format. It’s that simple

 

[Steve Williams]

Well now I'm confused. Is XDMI Lampizator the same implementation as analog out?

The new Horizon has Taiko in. Olympus XDMI OUT TO HORIZON TAIKO IN

 

[Taiko Audio]

Well now I'm confused. Is XDMI Lampizator the same implementation as analog out?

No.

 

[Steve Williams]

 

[Steve Williams]

You need XDMI cable to make the connection

 

[Taiko Audio]

@Taiko Audio I read your reply again, which is nuanced. The underlying signal path in O appears still to be i2s (1/2 inch), but the link with Horizon is not the 4 i2s signals + ground. So I am not sure XDMI is a brave new digital format.

It’s a new interface, not a new DAC.

 

[Steve Williams]

I went back and reread Emile's posts. In summary, yes, DACs receive i2s. But i2s at a distance is highly prone to jitter. So other digital formats, SPDIF and AES/EBU (in essence balanced SPDIF) and then USB were created to allow i2s to travel distances. However, there are limitations to all of them. XDMI is Emile's solution to the i2s travel issue that we're anticipating will solve the limitations. However, according to Emile's posts, even with XDMI, the DAC receives an i2s signal.

This is it in a nutshell Ray. Your posts are are speculative and misleading It’s the genius of Emile that created it so it’s all proprietary. Go back and read all of Emile’s posts on XDMI rather than postulate as I find that generates confusion to all

The take away for me is that XDMI is the very reason I bought the Olympus

 

[Moladiego]

It’s a new interface, not a new DAC.

Understood, but O's circuit board can communicate only in i2s, not "XDMI" right? If so, XDMI is an interface and optimal implementation of i2s? Am I wrong here? I want to be educated.

 

[Moladiego]

This is it in a nutshell Ray. Your posts are are speculative and misleading It’s the genius of Emile that created it so it’s all proprietary. Go back and read all of Emile’s posts on XDMI rather than postulate as I find that generates confusion to all

The take away for me is that XDMI is the very reason I bought the Olympus

Thought this forum is not for smart asses exclusively; there are many stupid questions out there. My question was not stupid at all. What's your intent? To silence all voices except your own or those that please you? Give me a break and hands off please.

 

[Moladiego]

I went back and reread Emile's posts. In summary, yes, DACs receive i2s. But i2s at a distance is highly prone to jitter. So other digital formats, SPDIF and AES/EBU (in essence balanced SPDIF) and then USB were created to allow i2s to travel distances. However, there are limitations to all of them. XDMI is Emile's solution to the i2s travel issue that we're anticipating will solve the limitations. However, according to Emile's posts, even with XDMI, the DAC receives an i2s signal.

Hi Joet, thought you summarized well. If the receiving DAC receives i2s signals, how come that the cable between O and H (5 pin) is not "i2s based"? What does this phrase mean?

 

[joet]

Understood, but O's circuit board can communicate only in i2s, not "XDMI" right? If so, XDMI is an interface and optimal implementation of i2s? Am I wrong here? I want to be educated.

I find it a little hard to wrap my head around too. But as best I can tell, since most DACs understand i2s, XDMI waits as long as possible before converting its protocol to i2s, gaining the resuling benefits of traveling over wire as something other than i2s. For DACs designed with XDMI in mind, there is no need to handoff to i2s. So, given my limited understanding, it's both an interface and a end to end protocol depending upon the implementation.

 

[John T]

This is it in a nutshell Ray. Your posts are are speculative and misleading It’s the genius of Emile that created it so it’s all proprietary. Go back and read all of Emile’s posts on XDMI rather than postulate as I find that generates confusion to all

The take away for me is that XDMI is the very reason I bought the Olympus

Understood, I ordered everything in the Taiko Ecosystem, including a new Lampizator (another) HORIZON. Nice to have a clear understanding even when opinions differ. At this juncture I could give a fuck less what everyone else thinks, I'm looking at my investment and a clear understanding...