Introducing Olympus & Olympus I/O - A new perspective on modern music playback

[cat6man]

Well, I remember Emile saying a year ago that during the development of XDMI, they realized that the Extreme was too noisy for that technology, and that led to the development of Olympus. I don't know if that's changed since then.

I believe more recent comments by emile said that it was in fact doable (and planned). My understanding is that the USB was the noisy limitation and that should be easy to drop.

 

[joet]

For XDMI the roadmap is (in most likely order of release):

1) A V2 software driver
2) Aries Cerat
3) A V2 analogue output stage
4) Generic I2S
5) 2 custom implementations for brands I cannot disclose till we've come to an official agreement

I hope one of those brands is Cinnamon. I heard their DAC and was very impressed. But I won't purchase my next DAC unless it's XDMI.

 

[Kingsrule]

I hope one of those brands is Cinnamon. I heard their DAC and was very impressed. But I won't purchase my next DAC unless it's XDMI.

Do u really think Taiko is going to put resources into developing XDMI for a basically unknown ????

 

[nonesup]

I believe more recent comments by emile said that it was in fact doable (and planned). My understanding is that the USB was the noisy limitation and that should be easy to drop.

If that's the case, it would be "interesting." At least I decided to invest in Olympus because Emile said it wasn't possible to implement it in Extreme

 

[Steve Williams]

I hope one of those brands is Cinnamon. I heard their DAC and was very impressed. But I won't purchase my next DAC unless it's XDMI.

I can honestly say that XDMI has forever changed the way I listen ti music. I might be in the minority but I just cant ever go back to USB and Im not interested in exploring any of the other interfaces.

I also so have to admit that even though I feel Roon with Olympus is simply terrific, I cant wait to hear XDMS released for the Olympus. I am betting that Ed Hsu and his team are going to make something spectacular and I dont believe Taiko would release it unless it is not only competitive but better than Roon ( and that is a daunting task)

I miss the Discord chat group discussions and being an alpha tester but hearing the XDMS beta is close to becoming a reality

 

[joet]

Do u really think Taiko is going to put resources into developing XDMI for a basically unknown ???

I can honestly say that XDMI has forever changed the way I listen ti music. I might be in the minority but I just cant ever go back to USB and Im not interested in exploring any of the other interfaces.

I also so have to admit that even though I feel Roon with Olympus is simply terrific, I cant wait to hear XDMS released for the Olympus. I am betting that Ed Hsu and his team are going to make something spectacular and I dont believe Taiko would release it unless it is not only competitive but better than Roon ( and that is a daunting task)

I miss the Discord chat group discussions and being an alpha tester but hearing the XDMS beta is close to becoming a reality

I agree. I expect to use XDMI exclusively. I don't see myself buying a Lampi or MSB, so I'll use the analogue card until there's a daughter card for a DAC that suits me. I've heard Emile was communicating with Cinnamon, but who knows if they'll work together. Eventually, I expect there will be an XDMI DAC I find appealing.

 

[cat6man]

If that's the case, it would be "interesting." At least I decided to invest in Olympus because Emile said it wasn't possible to implement it in Extreme

Updated earlier this year.

Xdmi and analog dac are on the extreme roadmap now

 

[cat6man]

Creme de la creme thread

#21,291
matthias said:
DAC card for the Extreme does this mean XDMI on the Extreme?

Yes it does. XDMI will become available to the Extreme, and who knows, maybe even other servers. This does however require an additional sizeable engineering effort. Currently most of our resources are spend on expanding our manufacturing capabilities hence we cannot provide any reliable ETA

 

[nonesup]

Very interesting how implementing XDMI in Extreme has gone from not being possible to being possible, but technically complicated.

 

[StreamFidelity]

Smaller blocks increase latency overhead but create a far more continuous data stream, reducing RF/EMI artefacts.

Thank you very much, Emile, for your technical explanations. I enjoy learning from you and I have a question about latency.

When I use the default setting in the USB driver, it's usually 256 sample packets. This can be used to calculate the latency. Using the example of a CD data format:

44,100 samples = 1,000 ms
256 samples = 5.8 ms (1000*256/44,100)

If I reduce the packet to 52 samples, it increases the workload for the CPU because more packets have to be sent in the same period of time. In return, the latency is reduced as follows:

52 samples = 1.18 ms (1000*52/44,100)

You wrote that smaller blocks “increase” the latency overhead. Where is my mistake in thinking?

 

[an.vamv]

For XDMI the roadmap is (in most likely order of release):

1) A V2 software driver
2) Aries Cerat
3) A V2 analogue output stage
4) Generic I2S
5) 2 custom implementations for brands I cannot disclose till we've come to an official agreement

@Taiko Audio . Hi Emile. Any prospect for XDMS for Olympus?

 

[nenon]

Thank you very much, Emile, for your technical explanations. I enjoy learning from you and I have a question about latency.

When I use the default setting in the USB driver, it's usually 256 sample packets. This can be used to calculate the latency. Using the example of a CD data format:

44,100 samples = 1,000 ms
256 samples = 5.8 ms (1000*256/44,100)

If I reduce the packet to 52 samples, it increases the workload for the CPU because more packets have to be sent in the same period of time. In return, the latency is reduced as follows:

52 samples = 1.18 ms (1000*52/44,100)

You wrote that smaller blocks “increase” the latency overhead. Where is my mistake in thinking?

I read this as "increased overhead" (as in more processing power needed), rather than "increased latency".
But there are also other limitations with USB once you get to microsecond level latency. That's where XDMI shines.

@Taiko Audio . Hi Emile. Any prospect for XDMS for Olympus?

I thought it was a blessing that the Olympus sounded better with Roon. Why would you want XDMS

Anyhow, this post may be of interest if you haven't seen it.

Hi @adyc ,

Sorry for the late reply, I just noticed I missed your post.

Yes, we actually already have it running. You will be able to use it with already existing controllers like bubble upnp or jplay ios, but we’re also adding player functionality to the BMS app. The BMS app will evolve into a multiple functionality Taiko app which can manage multiple Taiko technologies, like bms, music playback, xdmi settings, dac settings, configure/update/troubleshoot your router and olympus and/or extreme.

Although it’s operational, I cannot give you an eta on it’s actual release.

Note this particular playback software development is not related to the XDMS software project in any way, it runs in parallel / on a different track, although it will work with USB devices, it’s primarily developed to work directly with the XDMI protocols (and yes XDMI is coming for the Extreme product line).

I do have some “beta” screenshots I can share, there won’t be a alpha/beta program, it will just be released as an update.

View attachment 148075

View attachment 148076

 

[StreamFidelity]

I read this as "increased overhead" (as in more processing power needed), rather than "increased latency".

Thank you for your reply. Emile may have meant that latency overhead is related to CPU overload. In fact, latencies that are too low can overload the CPU to such an extent that the small packets can no longer be sent in time, resulting in dropouts.

I completely agree that smaller packets lead to a more linear data flow. Of course, USB (8 kHz) has limitations that XDMI does not have. An interesting technology!

 

[an.vamv]

I read this as "increased overhead" (as in more processing power needed), rather than "increased latency".
But there are also other limitations with USB once you get to microsecond level latency. That's where XDMI shines.


I thought it was a blessing that the Olympus sounded better with Roon. Why would you want XDMS

Anyhow, this post may be of interest if you haven't seen it.

@nenon. Olympus sounds better than Extreme because of the hardware not because of Roon. XDMS on Extreme was clearly superior sonically to Roon. I infer from your answer that Taiko have dropped development of XDMS for Olympus. Apparently it costs many manhours for development but brings no profit at present . Pity...i liked it a lot despite its several bugs

 

[Steve Williams]

@nenon. Olympus sounds better than Extreme because of the hardware not because of Roon. XDMS on Extreme was clearly superior sonically to Roon. I infer from your answer that Taiko have dropped development of XDMS for Olympus. Apparently it costs many manhours for development but brings no profit at present . Pity...i liked it a lot despite its several bugs

Gosh I hope youre wrong about dropping XDMS for Olympus as I havent heard that. Im hearing beta version will be released shortly and although I agree with nenon that Roon sounds wonderful on Olympus (which even I will admit) there was just something about the sound of XDMS that truly lit up my ears. Im quite happy with Roon right now but should XDMS surface for the Olympus Im would definitely want to hear it and to have the option of either or as we did with the Extreme

 

[nenon]

Taiko has not dropped development of XDMS for Olympus. They always keep exploring what's possible and leaving no stones unturned.

XDMS, as it stands, sounds worse than Roon on the Olympus + Router/DCD.

By the way, this mechanism is why XDMS performs worse than Roon on the Olympus + Router/DCD setup. Bypassing this mechanism would require a significant rewrite of one of XDMS’s core systems. As an alternative, we’ll be offering UPnP support soon. It’s actually ready, but we’re holding off on release to create some breathing room in our current workload, which continues to shift.

A lot of what was learned from XDMS has been implemented in the Olympus platform..

Let’s not forget that the XDMS development project is not just about the playback software itself. Most of the efforts went into learning how software affects sound quality. IOW you have to code it to understand it. That we do now get superior performance from Roon / Olympus / XDMI is in many ways because of lessons learned from the XDMS development project. And I’m quite sure future XDMS development will allow us to implement further improvements, which will be beneficial to Roon’s performance on our servers.

I have a bit of a love/hate relationship with XDMS.

On the “love” side: without XDMS and the invaluable feedback from this community, Taiko wouldn’t be where they are today. The input from users has been absolutely essential, and I can’t really stress enough how valuable that feedback is. And I really loved how it sounded on my Extreme.

On the “hate” side: the closed alpha testing group grew too large, and not everyone fully understood its purpose. That created some misplaced impressions about “problems,” when in reality the alpha testing group was always meant as a sandbox for exploration and feedback.

I also find myself repeatedly clarifying that all of the software on the Olympus is developed by a completely different team of engineers — and their work and outcome is nothing short of brilliant, as it should be on a production platform.

 

[Alessandro1*]

Hello everyone, I was one of you: Waited for well over one year, then walked away. Sadly for what I read the Olympus production issues are still unresolved as it is the pain and frustration of all the clients involved.
Now look at this picture: This is a Pink Faun 2.16 Ultra Dual, for better or worse a product comparable to the Olympus.
Ordered and paid for on 8/14 and delivered already yesterday 9/19. This is the factual striking contrast between somebody creating beautiful things but evidently completely deficient on the business side and somebody else, just a few doors down from him, also creating beautiful things but in this case, in full control of his business and capable to deliver like a pro.
I expect everything and more as a bitter payback for exposing nothing more than facts, starting from being banned for life from WBF notorious for this kind of retaliation, censuring whatever inconvenient truth may affect his sponsors.

 

[dminches]

I am completely happy with Roon on the Olympus. It always had the best UI and the sound seems to have stabilized from release to release. That doesn’t mean that an update can’t break things but I have faith that Emile and team will figure a way to deal with it.

 

[nenon]

Hello everyone, I was one of you: Waited for well over one year, then walked away. Sadly for what I read the Olympus production issues are still unresolved as it is the pain and frustration of all the clients involved.
Now look at this picture: This is a Pink Faun 2.16 Ultra Dual, for better or worse a product comparable to the Olympus.
Ordered and paid for on 8/14 and delivered already yesterday 9/19. This is the factual striking contrast between somebody creating beautiful things but evidently completely deficient on the business side and somebody else, just a few doors down from him, also creating beautiful things but in this case, in full control of his business and capable to deliver like a pro.
I expect everything and more as a bitter payback for exposing nothing more than facts, starting from being banned for life from WBF notorious for this kind of retaliation, censuring whatever inconvenient truth may affect his sponsors.

Hi Alessandro,

This is Vassil - we spoke on the phone last month. Feedback is taken very seriously by both me and the Taiko team. During our 2+ hour conversation I listened to everything you raised, and those concerns have been addressed.

I’m glad to hear your situation is now resolved, and also glad you’ve received your Pink Faun streamer. If you’d like, please feel free to start a new thread to share your experience with it.

Best regards,
Vassil

 

[Alessandro1*]

Hi Alessandro,

This is Vassil - we spoke on the phone last month. Feedback is taken very seriously by both me and the Taiko team. During our 2+ hour conversation I listened to everything you raised, and those concerns have been addressed.

I’m glad to hear your situation is now resolved, and also glad you’ve received your Pink Faun streamer. If you’d like, please feel free to start a new thread to share your experience with it.

Best regards,
Vassil

Hello Vassil,
Again I'm very grateful for your support and intervention. All the best to you.