Introducing Olympus & Olympus I/O - A new perspective on modern music playback

[marty]

Like many of you, I've been pondering what to do about storage for the Olympus. Its clear that a simple transfer of storage is not recommended by Taiko and I don't think its because they want to sell you a new storage card for the Olympus. I don;t even think SQ is the main issue.. I think they fear their inability to service it down the road although I can't say for sure. In any event, scratch that option. Also scratch the NAS option. I see headaches at every turn from setting it up to back up files, to service. Will Taiko fix your NAS issues when the files stop working for any reason? Doubtful. Why would they? And remember, Emile doesn't answer his email at 3 am like the old days! Also, the NAS is a mechanical SATA drive. What could possibly go wrong with a mechanical hard drive. Ha! So for those reasons, I'll pass. Lastly, as has already been mentioned, its also not clear when NAS files will be compatible with XDMS, which seems like another issue for the good folks at Taiko to sort out down the road.

I think the real question one needs to answer is- how much music will you play from your files vs. present and future streaming? My sense is that streaming will only get better and files will eventually be relatively obsolete. And as far as SQ, if there is only a 2-3% difference between NAS files and Olympus resident files, is this really significant in a situation whereby we've been told that the Olympus (with all the requisite peripherals) is a 200-300% improvement over an Extreme? This sounds more like a typical audiophilia conversation about how many angels are on the head of a pin. (If you're after the last word in SQ, it may be more productive to think analogue or tape anyway.)

Bottom line- I'm going with a 15TB drive in the Olympus. I have 8TB of music and my guess is that I will play from storage a very small portion of the time. But I use a lot of playlists and there is stuff on them that is from my files. So there's that. But in addition to being a SS drive, the real reason for my decision is service. If Taiko installs the memory in the Olympus, there will be no service issues as they will stand behind it for sure. I may never download a file again and if I had say 6 or 7TB of files I would have gone with the smaller storage option, but I can't. So, the 15TB board is more than sufficient. Yes, it's about $1K more than a comparable NAS, but c'mon, let's get real. We're talking about the cost of a couple of great tubes for goodness sake.

 

[Opabin]

No, we designed the footers to what we feel matches best with the Olympus presentation. Feel free to experiment, they will alter voicing to a slight degree.

My guess is that the Olympus footers are designed for effective dampening of vibrations rather than aiming for isolation. Could you share what material(s) is(are) used in their construction?

 

[Moladiego]

About the Router/Switch/DCD / streaming vs local storage / NAS storage:

This may partially be a somewhat unpopular post but I feel it’s necessary to highlight a few things:

1) IF you want ultimate performance from online streaming and/or NAS, AKA if you value network based music sources an audio exclusive network is a necessity. The only way to create this is by using a dedicated router for your audio network, what happens in front of the router is not very important, what happens after is. You can get a second internet subscription which will include a router provided by your ISP, and use that exclusively for your music server, or you can insert a router into your existing network. The difference between these 2 scenarios is negligible. The downside is, you have to deal with a router, nobody likes having to deal with a router, not even IT professionals or IT enthusiasts. They’re simply annoying devices. As you are all aware we have launched a router, after considerable contemplation I must add, as this would obviously not be a device which would be a pleasure to use due to its technical nature, next to placing a considerable load on our support team. We’re currently working on creating an app with setup wizards to make it easier / more enjoyable in use. But anyway the SQ advantages are undeniable. In fact so much so it can make online streaming/nas playback the superior sounding option.

2) If you don’t want to have to deal with any of this, local storage is the way to go. Just plug your Olympus into your home network somewhere and you’re good to know. Local file playback quality is hardly, if at all, affected by your network setup.

3) But what do you do for backup, drives CAN fail. So you’d most likely want a NAS anyway, even if just as a backup target for your music collection. You can use an external drive and plug it in from time to time, but some drives can have very poor data retention when left unpowered for extended periods of time. Be aware of that! Especially QLC SSDs (the most popular large capacity drives) can suffer data loss after just months of being unpowered. When powered they’re pretty well protected against this, especially U.2 drives which have additional data retention protection features.

4) Combining all this, if you own a sizeable music library you wish to protect well, you should seriously consider storing this on a NAS with good data protection (RAID), and ideally you’d even want to have copies on different devices. I only have elaborate experience with Synology, but those can even be configured to mirror over different locations, so for example you can have a NAS in your office, with family or friends, at home, and have these sync their contents. In that scenario you could obviously consider skipping on RAID protection again.

5) If you go the router way, and dig a bit deeper into your pockets to purchase ours, you don’t need internal storage for ultimate SQ. We would recommend a 2 or 3 meter length of DAC cable in that scenario as shorter is perhaps a bit too “tight” and longer a bit overly “smoothed”. But you’re there, and you can use a NAS for your music storage.

6) If you like some tuning/voicing options, crazy enough the Switch and DC distributor we offer can provide that for you. Just adding the switch smooths the sound to a small degree, adding the DC distributor gives you a wide tuning/voicing range by choosing different filters for router/switch. It’s not tone control, but not that far off either. Which is silly, we agree, yet it’s there. If you prefer to have your dish served raw and unflavoured, you can skip on those 2.

@Taiko Audio Everybody's situation is different. If I understand what you wrote here correctly and recalling what you wrote earlier, I'd think - subject to your correction - that having local storage is no brainer for me. (1) You wrote earlier that streaming with the 3 Taiko devices (Switch, Router, DCD) in use improves SQ by about 1% or 2% over local playback (Olympus) (which local playback is without the use of the 3devices) (otherwise, local playback is easily 20-25% better than streaming with the use of the 3 devices). These 3 devices cost around €15K. I don't need more than 8TB local storage, which costs €1K. BTW, can one really hear 1% or 2% SQ improvement? The Switch (which I have now) "colors" or "smooths" sound. In theory I don't like any coloring or smoothing and want to get recording sound as is, warts and all, so if your observation above is confirmed with my own hearing, Switch may not be used with the Olympus. (2) I continue to doubt that streaming from Qobus via compressed FLAC can sound as good as local playback with uncompressed WAV. Some FLAC (with highest compression level) compresses a WAV file by almost 2/3 (conversion of such files to WAV takes much longer with such software as dbpoweramp). I would think that streaming and conversion of such super-compressed FLAC files in real time would introduce much jitter and noise and therefore degrade sound. Every time I compared, I could hear audible superiority of WAV over FLAC (in some cases very significant) of the same music file. Therefore, I doubt that streaming with the 3 devices (with compressed files) would be better than local playback (of uncompressed WAV files). (3) My personal situation: so far as I can see, I will never stream from Qobus etc.; I would need 3 lifespans to listen to my vast music library: e.g., 40 or so different albums of one symphony alone, such as Bruckner 8, from 1944 Furtwangler/Wiener Philharmoniker to present. I keep acquiring files. Qobus does not have half of those albums I have, some in remastered albums from esoteric and small labels. I am posting this message to you because I am facing a decision at this moment to opt out of local storage or choose the right storage size. The decision is and can only be mine to make, but please kindly correct me if my conclusion is incorrect or questionable that local storage is no brainer for me. Thanks.

 

[SwissTom]

Also, the NAS is a mechanical SATA drive. What could possibly go wrong with a mechanical hard drive. Ha! So for those reasons, I'll pass.

Hi Marty,

I opted for the same option as you, I took 15 TB of internal storage. But for different reasons.

If what you're looking for is keeping your audio files safe, then by far the best option is a NAS.

Backups will also be much easier.

That's good advice from Emile.

For example, you could use one of the following NAS in RAID6 (SHR2). And you could place the NAS in a different room.
Add to it an external USB drive for BackUp and some long terme Amazon backup and your data is über safe!




Losing your data in this context means you almost have to do it on purpose

The only drawback is getting used to the NAS. But Synology does things very well. Their system is really easy to use.

Hope this helps,

Cheers,

Thomas

 

[Moladiego]

XDMS would need to be 100% rock solid, stable and a joy to use before we would consider offering it on the Olympus. Steps are being taken to achieve that, it’s now the main priority where before it was more an investigation into the effects of code and certain manipulations on SQ.

For me (who listen only to classical music), gapless playback + album-embedded PDF document (for reading of libretti and sung-texts while listening) are indispensable. Otherwise, XDMS would not be viable no matter how good it is - music as the end is more important than SQ as the means (now I often have to send libretti and sung-texts to emails for listening to operas or lieder). There are other huge annoyances, such as almost the daily need to re-scan the entire library (which I am doing as I type, which re-scanning takes 3 hours for 4TB local storage) because I add or delete albums on a daily basis. Sidecar scanning fails 90+% of the time. Constant adding and deletion from the server library is necessary for me because it would be foolish for me to store all 40 different albums of Bruckner 8 (used as an example) on the server storage (I only love 5-6 albums of that symphony). Also, XDMS/NSM often skips 24.192 files (I hate any format in excess of 24.96, but recording companies thrust those files to you for marketing reasons) and occasionally skips even 1x DSD files (annoying while in the middle of a 30-minute track). Don't get me wrong: I am grateful for what Taiko has done with XDMS/NSM (which is much superior to Roon; I love the Folder view and detest Album view that is standard with Roon); I have been using NSM exclusively notwithstanding the great inconvenience and numerous bugs. But music after all is more important: if one endlessly fusses over SQ, one can never enjoy or get into the core of classical music (which for me is Austro-German, but I love Italian, French, Czech and Russian etc. music). As to music playback software, may I petition Taiko to allow Foobar2000 - I love its simple and uncluttered interface - and also enable the option to make Folder View default (personally I cannot stand Album view, which is more suitable for pop music).

 

[Steve Williams]

For me (who listen only to classical music), gapless playback + album-embedded PDF document (for reading of libretti and sung-texts while listening) are indispensable. Otherwise, XDMS would not be viable no matter how good it is - music as the end is more important than SQ as the means (now I often have to send libretti and sung-texts to emails for listening to operas or lieder). There are other huge annoyances, such as almost the daily need to re-scan the entire library (which I am doing as I type, which re-scanning takes 3 hours for 4TB local storage) because I add or delete albums on a daily basis. Sidecar scanning fails 90+% of the time. Constant adding and deletion from the server library is necessary for me because it would be foolish for me to store all 40 different albums of Bruckner 8 (used as an example) on the server storage (I only love 5-6 albums of that symphony). Also, XDMS/NSM often skips 24.192 files (I hate any format in excess of 24.96, but recording companies thrust those files to you for marketing reasons) and occasionally skips even 1x DSD files (annoying while in the middle of a 30-minute track). Don't get me wrong: I am grateful for what Taiko has done with XDMS/NSM (which is much superior to Roon; I love the Folder view and detest Album view that is standard with Roon); I have been using NSM exclusively notwithstanding the great inconvenience and numerous bugs. But music after all is more important: if one endlessly fusses over SQ, one can never enjoy or get into the core of classical music (which for me is Austro-German, but I love Italian, French, Czech and Russian etc. music). As to music playback software, may I petition Taiko to allow Foobar2000 - I love its simple and uncluttered interface - and also enable the option to make Folder View default (personally I cannot stand Album view, which is more suitable for pop music).

 

[Moladiego]

I got censored; some part of my original language got deleted for being "political." Not at all in my view (John Stuart Mill's philosophy is part of the establishment's view; nothing political about it). So I change the response as follows. I don't appreciate the sarcasm. <snip>. Back to the topic, I hope Taiko will eventually release an Olympus XDMS that solves the basic flaws of gaps etc. (even the cheapest CD player plays music gaplessly); personally, I don't like Roon's cluttered features and interface.

 

[wil]

@Taiko Audio Everybody's situation is different. If I understand what you wrote here correctly and recalling what you wrote earlier, I'd think - subject to your correction - that having local storage is no brainer for me. (1) You wrote earlier that streaming with the 3 Taiko devices (Switch, Router, DCD) in use improves SQ by about 1% or 2% over local playback (Olympus) (which local playback is without the use of the 3devices) (otherwise, local playback is easily 20-25% better than streaming with the use of the 3 devices). These 3 devices cost around €15K. I don't need more than 8TB local storage, which costs €1K. BTW, can one really hear 1% or 2% SQ improvement? The Switch (which I have now) "colors" or "smooths" sound. In theory I don't like any coloring or smoothing and want to get recording sound as is, warts and all, so if your observation above is confirmed with my own hearing, Switch may not be used with the Olympus. (2) I continue to doubt that streaming from Qobus via compressed FLAC can sound as good as local playback with uncompressed WAV. Some FLAC (with highest compression level) compresses a WAV file by almost 2/3 (conversion of such files to WAV takes much longer with such software as dbpoweramp). I would think that streaming and conversion of such super-compressed FLAC files in real time would introduce much jitter and noise and therefore degrade sound. Every time I compared, I could hear audible superiority of WAV over FLAC (in some cases very significant) of the same music file. Therefore, I doubt that streaming with the 3 devices (with compressed files) would be better than local playback (of uncompressed WAV files). (3) My personal situation: so far as I can see, I will never stream from Qobus etc.; I would need 3 lifespans to listen to my vast music library: e.g., 40 or so different albums of one symphony alone, such as Bruckner 8, from 1944 Furtwangler/Wiener Philharmoniker to present. I keep acquiring files. Qobus does not have half of those albums I have, some in remastered albums from esoteric and small labels. I am posting this message to you because I am facing a decision at this moment to opt out of local storage or choose the right storage size. The decision is and can only be mine to make, but please kindly correct me if my conclusion is incorrect or questionable that local storage is no brainer for me. Thanks.

@Moladiego, you raise some interesting points.

You might have one thing wrong? I believe Emile has said, that with Olympus, local and streamed files are sounding the same in terms of sq. (not local 20-25% better). Maybe you're referring to what @cat6man said about WAV files (streamed or local) being better?

Which brings to mind the question: is finding a way to stream WAV files, as discussed earlier, something that is on the roadmap? And would that require the Olympus to be using XDMS?

Sorry if I have this completely discombobulated.

 

[adyc]

We only support Roon. Any other additions need to make sense / be worthwhile.

As an example, command line playback using xdplayer.exe (the playback component of XDMS) sounds identical to Roon.

Can I install Jriver in Olympus?

 

[Moladiego]

@Moladiego, you raise some interesting points.

You might have one thing wrong? I believe Emile has said, that with Olympus, local and streamed files are sounding the same in terms of sq. (not local 20-25% better). Maybe you're referring to what @cat6man said about WAV files (streamed or local) being better?

Which brings to mind the question: is finding a way to stream WAV files, as discussed earlier, something that is on the roadmap? And would that require the Olympus to be using XDMS?

Sorry if I have this completely discombobulated.

This is how I understood Emile's views (please correct me if wrong): equal to local playback (without the 3 devices) only if streaming is used with the 3 devices (Router, Switch & DCD); otherwise, local playback is easily better (I recalled 20-25% better; but somebody mentioned 10-15% better). Streaming from Qobus (which I tried for a month 2 years ago) would be streaming from FLAC for its HiFi albums (not WAV files for bandwidth reasons presumably); you can stream from your NAS files (WAV), which would require the use of the 3 devices to be equal to local playback (without the 3 devices). If you factor in the SQ difference between WAV and FLAC, I doubt streaming with the 3 devices would be 1-2% better than local playback (also can you really hear the 1-2% better SQ?). Then you factor in the euro 15K cost for the 3 devices - it is no brainer for me to get local storage. I am asking why I even need 8TB because I constantly delete and add from and to the server storage. I am leaning toward 8TB though (to have no regrets down the road). Stand to be educated.

 

[TWJeff]

Practical differences between the Extreme and the Olympus:

A summary of differing features compiled into one post:

Storage:
Extreme: locally stored files sound best

Olympus: local and remote sourced files sound the same (when used with the router)

Network:
Extreme: network setup affects both local as remote file playback performance

Olympus: network setup only affects remote file playback performance

Playback software:
Extreme: playback software affects sound quality

Olympus: playback software does not affect sound quality (assuming the playback software used is bit-perfect)

USB:
Extreme: allows finetuning towards a DAC by means of selectable USB profiles

Olympus: no effect of USB profiles, hence eliminated

Remote Desktop access:
Extreme: customer may need to access the desktop to perform various tasks

Olympus: customer does not need desktop access

General remark:

The Olympus has 1 single USB port. If you plug anything into this port, an USB drive, a DAC or any other USB device, XDMI sound quality will take a nosedive down to about the same level as USB. So when comparing USB to XDMI with your DAC make sure to unplug the USB cable, and even better yet also restart the Olympus to remove any lingering nasties. Aka don’t use any USB device unless absolutely necessary!

Hi Emile,

Olympus does not need desktop access?
So how we access to Olympus and how we move our music files to internal storage?

Thanks.
jeff

 

[moby2004]

Hello all,

Questioning myself as well storage-wise . If I go for an external storage, I am considering to put the full setup ( dcd,router,switch, NAS) in another room. Any issue to use a very long DAC network cable ( ~15M) between the switch and the Olympus ?

By the way, Qnap is proposing some nice silent and slim NAS but you pay for the "design"...

Alex

 

[TWJeff]

Hello all,

Questioning myself as well storage-wise . If I go for an external storage, I am considering to put the full setup ( dcd,router,switch, NAS) in another room. Any issue to use a very long DAC network cable ( ~15M) between the switch and the Olympus ?

By the way, Qnap is proposing some nice silent and slim NAS but you pay for the "design"...

Alex

I remember DAC cable is 1-7 meters.

Jeff

 

[Taiko Audio]

My guess is that the Olympus footers are designed for effective dampening of vibrations rather than aiming for isolation. Could you share what material(s) is(are) used in their construction?

The Olympus has various internal measures to address vibrational effects. The footers function mainly as an “interface” to the structure (shelf/rack) supporting it. The most common scenario is it would be placed on a stiff material with high internal propagation of “sound” so we chose Acrylic as the interface material which has a low propagation (speed) of sound for a solid material. And additional benefit is a lower potential for damaging the surface it’s placed on.

 

[Taiko Audio]

Can I install Jriver in Olympus?

We only and exclusively support Roon for the initial launch.

To have a manageable support load in the future we’re moving to management by remote app (IOS/Android). The company we enlisted to develop the Battery Management System control app is working on that now.

This app will feature self-help functionality, like for example a repair wizard for a failed Roon update, so you don’t have to enlist support if that happens. We’re aiming for full and easy self-serviceability.

It will also allow to install and remove packages like playback software, install software updates, etc.

Additionally it will guarantee performance, one of the most recurring support calls is: “I changed something in the OS, I don’t recall what, but my Extreme sounds bad now”.

 

[Taiko Audio]

Hi Emile,

Olympus does not need desktop access?
So how we access to Olympus and how we move our music files to internal storage?

Thanks.
jeff

Copy over the network, like any other music server

On the to-do list for the previously mentioned management app is actually also a music transfer help wizard.

 

[Taiko Audio]

Hello all,

Questioning myself as well storage-wise . If I go for an external storage, I am considering to put the full setup ( dcd,router,switch, NAS) in another room. Any issue to use a very long DAC network cable ( ~15M) between the switch and the Olympus ?

By the way, Qnap is proposing some nice silent and slim NAS but you pay for the "design"...

Alex

Passive DAC cables are limited to 7 meters in length. There are active DAC cables for longer lengths but we have not actually tested those, chances are however they perform similarly to fiber. You could use the switch as a DAC cable extender, but that obviously means you have to position the switch halfway. What we tested to actually sound pretty good though is rj45 between router and switch and then DAC to server.

 

[Taiko Audio]

This is how I understood Emile's views (please correct me if wrong): equal to local playback (without the 3 devices) only if streaming is used with the 3 devices (Router, Switch & DCD); otherwise, local playback is easily better (I recalled 20-25% better; but somebody mentioned 10-15% better). Streaming from Qobus (which I tried for a month 2 years ago) would be streaming from FLAC for its HiFi albums (not WAV files for bandwidth reasons presumably); you can stream from your NAS files (WAV), which would require the use of the 3 devices to be equal to local playback (without the 3 devices). If you factor in the SQ difference between WAV and FLAC, I doubt streaming with the 3 devices would be 1-2% better than local playback (also can you really hear the 1-2% better SQ?). Then you factor in the euro 15K cost for the 3 devices - it is no brainer for me to get local storage. I am asking why I even need 8TB because I constantly delete and add from and to the server storage. I am leaning toward 8TB though (to have no regrets down the road). Stand to be educated.

What it comes down to is 2 scenarios:
1) you have the Taiko* router -> everything sounds about the same
2) you don’t have the Taiko* router -> local files sound best

*This might also be true for other routers but I’ve not been able to test that.

 

[Armsan]

Re-reading the discussion over the last few pages I see the potential for some misconceptions to start occurring.

1) Local storage file playback quality is not inferior to router + network sourced playback files, it’s equal.

2) Adding a drive to the Olympus however is not completely inaudible, nothing huge but you can hear a small difference on a highly resolving system, I’d rate this at a 1-2% impact, not enough to actually worry about. If I hadn’t mentioned it I’m sure nobody would have ever noticed it.

3) This does make a NAS a viable option for storing your music as you’ll have the same sound quality as playing from local storage, at a much lower price, you can have virtually unlimited storage sizes and you have more data security strategies to play around with. (Again assuming you use the Taiko router). There is a downside as well, being it may add some complexity to your setup.

Emile,
What do you think about the SQ of an HD or SSD disk plugged into the USB port of the Router, which it was supposed to be used as a NAS itself? How does it compare to local stored files in the Olympus? And compared to an independent network NAS?
Assuming that we have Router/Switch/DCD in the Taiko network, of course.
Is the USB port of the router too noisy and degrades SQ compared to an independent network NAS?
Sorry, to many questions…, too much anxiety
I know we must try for ourselves but your guidance is mandatory for us to prepare one solution over the other or, discard another.
Thank you.

 

[Taiko Audio]

Emile,
What do you think about the SQ of an HD or SSD disk plugged into the USB port of the Router, which it was supposed to be used as a NAS itself? How does it compare to local stored files in the Olympus? And compared to an independent network NAS?
Assuming that we have Router/Switch/DCD in the Taiko network, of course.
Is the USB port of the router too noisy and degrades SQ compared to an independent network NAS?
Sorry, to many questions…, too much anxiety
I know we must try for ourselves but your guidance is mandatory for us to prepare one solution over the other or, discard another.
Thank you.

I have zero issues with answering any questions that may arise, as far as possible

Indeed there are so many possible permutations to try that I simply lack the time to test everything personally.

Addressing storage attached to the router:
1) There are 2 internal m.2 ports which can accommodate storage drives. Unfortunately this appears to suffer from a similar degradation as using m.2 drives in the Olympus. The router draws around 5-6 watts but these drives can easily double power consumption, and perhaps even worse draw several amps of current as they run off 3v3 rails. This sortoff wastes all that’s good about the router being a fixed continuous current draw which does not vary at all when loaded, where the drives vary allover the place.

2) That leaves storage connected to the USB port, powering it from the USB port creates similar issues as 1), its a bit more benign as it runs off 5V in stead of 3V3, but still very much audible.

3) Naturally you can use an externally powered USB drive, that solves that particular problem, but we currently only have ext4 filesystem support (linux), and not all drives work. So we’re currently working on adding support for multiple filesystems like AFS (apple), FAT32, NTFS (windows). This is not very difficult to do and I expect this to work pretty soon, aka TBC It’s an interesting option for sure, your music collection will always be at \\192.168.100.1\usb and you can just plug the drive into your mac or windows desktop to copy additional music files to it or create backups etc.