If You Build It, Will They Come? A New Audiogon

[caesar]

I think the reason Audiogon and their crappy site have lasted so long is because of network economics. Audiogon is like the telephone company or ebay. The more users there are in their network, the more valuable the network is to everyone. At one time, Amazon tried to supplant eBay as an auction site and failed miserably. There were just too many users using ebay who had established good reputations which drew more sellers, and then buyers, and then sellers.... AT&T (Bell) and their **** service have lasted so long as well...as more people got a telephone and joined AT&T's network, the more valuable the network became for everyone.

Stereolist came on the scene with a better site a while back. They were even giving away free ads. But they have not been able to get a footing for the reasons above. And even with this fiasco, Stereolist's ads have not seen a huge uptick. The impression I get is people have been leaving their email addresses in their audiogon ads and have been doing deals off line. It will be interesting to see how it plays out.

 

[rad]

I agree with the simple listing fee. I never had a issue with this. They just took the other fees to far.

If you can start to bring the customers to the new site the advertisements will be sure to follow. As will the $$.

Keep it simple just like they did from the start up. I like the ideas already listed of more pics & ability to do a search on recently sold components so you can see what they are selling for.
No fee for blue book search.

********Monitor with strict rules to keep the scum out & the trusted members in.

One reason agon has been able to sustain for so long is they have a huge member base & people are reluctant to leave. Even though most of us have been pissed off by them one time or other.

Reason they have survived this long:
many years of positive feedback built up from dedicated members
thread interaction & helpful instruction,,,, sometime not but it's fun to read.
personal systems listed & discussed

Please add your Reasons for their success to help form a basis.........

RIP Audiogon

I would love to see a new site, It is time...




Gary

 

[Steve Williams]

Monitor with strict rules to keep the scum out & the trusted members in

others have suggested that as well and it goes without saying, but rather than having it heavily moderated with hours passing before you see your post or never see your post at all, one way to get around that is to have membership BIO (by invitation only) and start the site with as many charter members as possible so that the source of referrals have a way of starting. Doing this there just wont EVER be scammers, spammers, etc

 

[NorthStar]

You do it Steve! :b

 

[rad]

others have suggested that as well and it goes without saying, but rather than having it heavily moderated with hours passing before you see your post or never see your post at all, one way to get around that is to have membership BIO (by invitation only) and start the site with as many charter members as possible so that the source of referrals have a way of starting. Doing this there just wont EVER be scammers, spammers, etc

Steve,

I do like this idea of BIO. Excellent.

But, need to get as many trusted, charter members as possible to have a good start so interest won't decline.

Catchy Name / a contest for most creative name
Incentives for advertisers for start up

ect, ect..

 

[c1ferrari]

That's one helluva post, cjfrbw...

Evolution of the internet from benign exchange of ideas and communication to screaming obnoxious billboard, commercial greed and database watch dog?

Facebook: Starts out as dating and social network and devolves into a tool of government and corporate surveillance and cross sectional analysis for advertising and sales. Epitaph: Big Brother didn't need to take the freedoms away, they just euphamised the process and let the sheep do it to themselves.

Audiogon: Hobbyist site, based on communication and common interest, succumbs to rampant commercialization and rent harvesting on the assumption that the captive audience wouldn't notice or could be exploited and wouldn't go elsewhere.

I don't think Audiogon can be saved, more like newspaper heirs fighting over a fortune being depleted by lawyers a la Bleak House, it doesn't appear to be a reversible process or a revive-able carcass.

I think as time goes on there will be the "void opportunists" who watch sites like Audiogon rise, rot and succumb and then step in to offer what Audiogon used to be, sort of like industries stealing each other's customers.

It is a strange evolution to observe, the sociopaths and con artists wrecked swatches of the the internet a couple of years ago, also the commercial exploiters of internet slander hopped on as well, it is like watching lumbering giants suffer paralyzing, crippling diseases based on the frailties of human nature.

Then, there's the bad side...

 

[c1ferrari]

Personally, I'd rather a listing fee and no commission. With auctions, I suspect eBay can monitor the winning bid; moreover, eBay has PayPal to confirm the monetary exchange as well as exact additional fees.

 

[Johnny Vinyl]

So where are people listing their components for sale now?

 

[NorthStar]

Here! ... At What's Best Audiogon Forum.

WBAF; Why Bother Accept Faith. :b

 

[fas42]

So where are people listing their components for sale now?

Sorry to be a traitor, but Audio Asylum are raising their hand rather energetically about such ...

Frank

 

[Steve Williams]

From the Audiogon blog......

What we are working on:
Application Errors-how frustrating, we have been getting these too. Since our launch in January, search engines have been re-indexing the pages (not just current listings, but past listings) on our site, sometimes creating an overload on the system. These application errors are a temporary problem (i.e. a growing pain) while this rendering takes place, and we are working with the major search engines to minimize the disruption.
On-site Messaging is coming soon. Protecting our community from fraud and providing a secure marketplace for our members is a top priority here at Audiogon. We know that our community wants to communicate with one another and our new on-site messaging system will provide a secure venue for that interaction. We are not trying to monitor your communications with one another or create an enforcement mechanism for sales commissions. Instead, we are trying to protect our members from fraud. Audiogon will continue to mediate disputes between members when they engage in an on-site transactions, but we cannot be held responsible for communications and transactions that take place off-site. The community made it clear that being able to message one another is very important, and we are working hard to facilitate this interaction.

 

[1rsw]

I've been searching around for a new solution since the downward spiral of Audiogon. I have to say, the new Audio Asylum Trading Post is pretty damn impressive. The interface is outstanding, it's free, they already have a base of traffic and it's growing fast and honestly, I can't find a damn thing wrong with it. I just moved all my listings there, it was a breeze.

I have no affiliation at all. I'm just enthusiastic about the possibilities so trying to spread the word.

 

[Mosin]

These kinds fiascoes are nothing new. Some of you guys may remember a website back in the late Nineties called "Consumer Electronics" or "Consumer Electronics Review"... I can't remember the name correctly myself. Anyway, it had a thriving community, and was a good place to buy and sell. The owners started changing rules, and digging for more profit. Where are they now?

When you consider the current economic climate, now really isn't a good time to run about changing things. The risk is too great, if you are starting from a winning position.

 

[TMenacker]

Re: Audiogon

The sad state of affairs of Audiogon has shaken the audiophile community as we all pause and wonder whether the "new" Audiogon will ever regain the glory days of the old site. There is nothing but confusion, chaos and disgust by members world wide as we sit and ponder the fate of this once noble site hoping it to regain a hint of it's old days. Sadly however such does not seem to be the case. There are never ending stories of lost links, inability to find listings, a search engine that doesn't work, scammers galore infiltrating the site amongst other things. It is also impossible to edit ones' systems even though the systems are shown as the data base was not carried over to the new site.

If I were to hazard a guess the site was changed by new ownership as means of collecting lost revenues as the old system allowed for internal communication amongst members which then allowed them to take negotiations outside of the control and auspices of Audiogon which then results in uncollected monies from the sale of the equipment.

There is an old saying that "if it ain't broken, don't fix it". Only problem now is whether all of the conversion of data or lack thereof resulted in such a quagmire making the new Audiogon unfixable.

There have been repeated cries from members everywhere that someone should take the initiative and build a new site. This is tantamount to a David and Goliath story but can it be done? Myles and others have suggested that it can be done but it would take time to establish credibility. In other words, "if you build it, will they come?"

My question to readers is the following. Given what we know now to be the sad state of affairs of Audiogon and assuming a new site can be constructed from the ground up what would you as the site developer include in your wish list from the perspective of
1. A buyer
2. A seller
3. The site owner

Let's reminisce to the days of an Audiogon that worked and have you list all of those things you feel the new site should have if it is looked at from all three perspectives of buyer, seller and site owner so that it is again a "win-win-win" situation for everyone

For instance as a seller I would want to be able to list 5-6 photos of the gear show MSRP, show asking price, list its condition, show buyer and seller ratings, feel secure in the transfer of monies etc, etc etc. As a seller would I be able to have either a direct listing or an auction etc etc?

As a buyer can I do a search of all listings, can I compare this gear to similar gear? Can I do a Blue Book search to determine the worth of the gear. etc etc

As site owner is it fair to assume a percentage of the sale price or would you eliminate this fee and instead make the listing fees such that this would be sufficient. Should listing fees be determined by the listing price of the equipment? Would you allow internal communication between members? Would you insist that all sales be handled internally between the site owners and the buyer-seller as Audiogon is striving to achieve now.

In other words given a clean slate and using developers to build something new from the ground up tell us how you envision building something "better" than Audiogon as we know it now looking at it from all three perspectives

My feelings echo that of Myles with the further caveat that "if you build it, will they come?"

However I think it would be fun to hear what everyone sees to be the perfect "next" Audiogon

Lastly, if such a site were born would everyone consider it and move their personal systems to this new site and use it for buying and selling?

IOW would you also like a site that has the ability to not only post your systems but also have discussion forums as there used to be

Finally, finally as Brutus said "there is a tide in the affairs of men" and could this be the right time to make a better Audiogon?

What sayest everyone?

It would take about 2 million dollars to create a "new" Audiogon. Even if the site was perfect, technically, and user friendly, unfortunately it and any site like it, will always be a breeding ground for fraud. The buyer is really rolling the dice. Unless you know the person, or you're purchasing from a highly regarded dealer, sooner or later you will get burned. You just really don't know what your getting. If you could hear the stories I hear, you would be amazed, angry, and a bit sad. Certainly there are many decent reputable people that used the site. It is well known that a lot of equipment goes on Audiogon, because no dealer will touch it. A few years ago one of our vendors sent out a dealer letter. Their service department received an amp that had been in a fire. After looking at it, they advised the insurance Co. that it "was unrepairable". They returned it to the Insurance company, who then put it on Audiogon. Then you have the DIY folks who think they can "modify" the equipment, rendering it virtually worthless. In addition most companies will not repair anything that has ben modified. And of course if the is any warrant it will be void. Be careful, it's dangerous out there!

 

[caesar]

I think the reason Audiogon and their crappy site have lasted so long is because of network economics. Audiogon is like the telephone company or ebay. The more users there are in their network, the more valuable the network is to everyone. At one time, Amazon tried to supplant eBay as an auction site and failed miserably. There were just too many users using ebay who had established good reputations which drew more sellers, and then buyers, and then sellers.... AT&T (Bell) and their **** service have lasted so long as well...as more people got a telephone and joined AT&T's network, the more valuable the network became for everyone.

Stereolist came on the scene with a better site a while back. They were even giving away free ads. But they have not been able to get a footing for the reasons above. And even with this fiasco, Stereolist's ads have not seen a huge uptick. The impression I get is people have been leaving their email addresses in their audiogon ads and have been doing deals off line. It will be interesting to see how it plays out.

Since I hate typing, I will quote myself. There is a new site out there called Site Offers. It links right off the avguide.com site and is probably run by the same avguide guys. It has been around for about 2 weeks. They built it and no one has come. Also, I just hit the Stereolist site. After about a year or so, it has only 17 Preamps listed, while Audiogon has nearly 500 despite their problems.

Here are 2 sites that have spent a lot of money and effort and likely to fail because Network Effects are extremely difficult to overcome. They call economics a "hidden order". Fail to understand economics at your own risk.

 

[treitz3]

Anybody know or remember how the 'gone got started?

 

[A.wayne]

Talk about shooting yourself in the foot , what were they thinking over at the Gon...

 

[kach22i]

Anybody know or remember how the 'gone got started?

There was a great basement store in Ann Arbor on State street, across from campus from which it sprung call Accutronics (look for small ads in the back of Stereophile from that era). Back in 1992 when I fist came to town the front part of the store was filled with ghetto blasters and mini student systems, with the better used stuff the further back you went, and even new stuff at the tail end. Eventually the boom blasters went away and it became all high-end (used stuff about half the floor area), complete with seminars at night.

The owner Arnie started buying and selling online (1998?) and was making more money that way without the overhead and fuss of running a brick and mortar business. He offered his employee/son Christian to take over Accutronics (in 2000?), but the son got a better offer from a developer and started building expensive homes (Watermark Homes - since sold interest to race his Porsche).

Accutronics also did some stereo repair, but it all went away all too soon for my liking.

I remember calling Arnie after he closed his store offering my architectural services should he decide to reopen elsewhere. I should have been calling his son and designing custom homes.

 

[silviajulieta]

Dear friends: I can't say if this is relevant or only an " unfortunate " coincidence. I just received this email that in theory came from Agon but in reality does not comes from Agon, Agon is already checking about and will take care about on a wide and deep investigation because the email is a fake/fraud one.

The email came or has an origin in germany, you can read the email address ( audiogon.de ):


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this is the second time in last two months I received this kind of email.



Anyway, take care all of you.

Regards and enjoy the music,
R.

 

[andromedaaudio]

I still cant get into my systempage , anybody else can???