I said I would never buy another Turntable...Argh !!!

[Ron Resnick]

. . .

regarding the rack question; I think that the TS-300 is the wrong choice for a number of reasons. the AVI units are simply better performers as they are larger form factors and so enjoy that advantage for better performance, as well as being much cheaper, and have the added advantage of using the LFS unit to improve performance. the auto leveling feature of the TS units has no benefit in our application how we will use these. and the Nanodamp NWD 23A series platform is engineered to be the perfect solution already and there is no need to make it different. it is designed for 660 pounds/300 kg.

I've requested a few modifications which the techs at Herzan are reviewing; (1) linear power supplies, (2) moving the control unit to the rear to allow for more space for (3) shelves, (4) plastic caps on the legs for sand or shot fill, (5) either large screw flat feet or spikes, and (6) possibly taller to both accommodate more shelf height and allow for a better working height for cartridge/arm adjustments and record on and off.

. . .

I realize David's perspective on the thick steel top plate. but you are going to have huge bass towers in a much smaller space than David has. those bass towers (like mine) will cause feedback I don't care how much mass you have.....it's just physics. David's bass units are much less intrusive and over 30 feet from his platform. think about it. and a sandwich/breadboard type of top surface has properties more appropriate than thick steel in terms of energy retention. ask Tim or Reid about that. Taiko Tana have done investigations into this question.

there are similar capacity 'standard' Nanodamp NDW racks which would match the look of the active shelves, so you could use 3 of these and get the tech you want with each. and they are already designed for the task.

Dear Mike,

The NDW-23A does indeed look like a good solution. I like the LFS option, too.

A few months ago I asked Tim about holes and caps to fill the legs with sand or steel shot. I also asked about flat feet versus spikes.

Tim said at that time that his people did not perceive any difference in TS active isolation performance between flat feet or spikes.

I am quite sure I am going to place the Aesthetix Io control unit on a TS-140, so I want any other Herzan stand to match the custom stand for the TS-140.

I appreciate your suggestions on the tabletop. I have plenty of time to figure out the tabletop solution.

All of the components except the VTLs will be located in an adjacent equipment room, out of the line of fire of the speaker columns.

 

[Mike Lavigne]

Congratulations, rockitman (and Mike)!

I wonder if I could ask a question of yourself and ddk regarding the motor unit and controller.

They appear to be similar to these ones mentioned here on WBF member airbearing’s site AudioCirc.com, and be reminiscent of the Micro Seiki 8000 in form…

https://audiocirc.com/2017/01/10/a-superb-ac-motor-control-unit/

https://13audio.com/2014/01/19/some-serious-turntable-motors/

Without divulging proprietary information, could either of you talk to the American Sound’s motor and control unit’s origins and its design ethos?

Thanks, and congrats again,

853guy

yes; the motors and controllers are one and the same as the one's referenced in the top link you posted.

i'll let David comment on the 'American Sound’s motor and control unit’s origins and its design ethos'.

in my conversations with David about the significance of the motor and control unit in the performance, David explained that what sets this motor apart from others is it's ability to fully control such a heavy platter, and that no motors are currently being built that are capable to the same degree. so (1) the heavy platter (2) the platter rides on a bed of air, but no bearing, just a guide, and (3) super heavy plinth, (4) require a unique motor and unique motor controller.

I apologize if I got things a bit wrong, but that is what I recall.

I heard it. there is something other-worldly about how it sounds.

 

[Mike Lavigne]

Dear Mike,

The NDW-23A does indeed look like a good solution. I like the LFS option, too.

A few months ago I asked Tim about holes and caps to fill the legs with sand or steel shot. I also asked about flat feet versus spikes.

Tim said at that time that his people did not perceive any difference in TS active isolation performance between flat feet or spikes.

I am quite sure I am going to place the Aesthetix Io control unit on a TS-140, so I want any other Herzan stand to match the custom stand for the TS-140.

I appreciate your suggestions on the tabletop. I have plenty of time to figure out the tabletop solution.

thanks Ron.

All of the components except the VTLs will be located in an adjacent equipment room, out of the line of fire of the speaker columns.

it's not the acoustic air-borne feedback that is the issue. it's the structure borne feedback. until you get those Gryphon's firing you won't know about the feedback. my floor is 6 inches of concrete and just on female vocals I got feedback. likely in a separate room there will be no issue, but be open to it.

i'm in the hallway next to my room with a load bearing wall between me and the speakers and still get resonance from my bass towers.......750 pounds of low frequency love. you will have the same. the concrete floor is like a huge sink holding the energy. and properly energized, so would a massive steel plate tabletop. an impedance layer needs to isolate the structure borne resonance.

some of this is a matter of taste and choice of presentation. warmth over articulation......not necessarily into the area we think of as distortion.

 

[spiritofmusic]

Can anyone please explain how the AS-2000 gets away w'out a bearing?
I thought this was as necessary in a tt as a platter or motor.
No bearing, super heavy/dense platter and plinth, uber torquey motor drive, air cushioning to such a heavy platter.
I don't think I've ever been so enamoured with a tt design before.
I thought the Saskia Ref w it's 250lb of platter and plinth and high powered motor was the end.
But if it is, then the END end is winging its way to the Four Musketeers (David, Ron, Mike and Christian).

 

[howiebrou]

Wow. 7 pages in one day! Congrats to Christian and Mike. I know next to nothing about the AS so am looking forward to the journey!

Howie

 

[853guy]

yes; the motors and controllers are one and the same as the one's referenced in the top link you posted.

i'll let David comment on the 'American Sound’s motor and control unit’s origins and its design ethos'.

in my conversations with David about the significance of the motor and control unit in the performance, David explained that what sets this motor apart from others is it's ability to fully control such a heavy platter, and that no motors are currently being built that are capable to the same degree. so (1) the heavy platter (2) the platter rides on a bed of air, but no bearing, just a guide, and (3) super heavy plinth, (4) require a unique motor and unique motor controller.

I apologize if I got things a bit wrong, but that is what I recall.

I heard it. there is something other-worldly about how it sounds.

Thanks, Mike. Very much looking forward to how this thread unfolds and the potential insights into what makes this exceptional that we can hopefully all benefit from. If rockitman and ddk have additional thoughts/comments/insights, I'll very gladly welcome them.

Can anyone please explain how the AS-2000 gets away w'out a bearing?
I thought this was as necessary in a tt as a platter or motor.
No bearing, super heavy/dense platter and plinth, uber torquey motor drive, air cushioning to such a heavy platter.
I don't think I've ever been so enamoured with a tt design before.
I thought the Saskia Ref w it's 250lb of platter and plinth and high powered motor was the end.
But if it is, then the END end is winging its way to the Four Musketeers (David, Ron, Mike and Christian).

Perhaps it's a variation of this (though I have no idea of the specifics):

https://audiocirc.com/2016/10/21/air-bearing/

(Taken from airbearing's site. On a personal note, I've found airbearing's AudioCirc blog to contain a wealth of beautifully photographed historical and contemporary insights, all of which have created much envy for someone sworn to audio-related financial conservatism for the time being.)

Best,

853guy

 

[spiritofmusic]

As a massive MASSIVE fan of the 70s, this tt can do no wrong IMHO.
I can only imagine what Led Zep Physical Graffiti 45rpm played on a tt of the same era would "feel" like, let alone sound.
And I haven't even heard this beauty LOL.
Is the unique faceted finish to the AS plinth going to remain, or replaced w something more modern in appearance?
I certainly hope not.
There are enough super smooth/stealthy finished components of all kinds out there.
It would be great if the AS-2000 maintains that "hewn and machined by hand from solid metal" look that makes it so unique.
Otherwise it'll kind of stray into Air Force 3 looks territory.
And that COULD be mighty disappointing.
I think we should prepare for the Msb Select 3 box to be, ahem, put back in its box LOL.

 

[853guy]

as far as a name, that's a David question. for now, this new American Sound turntable is the AS-2000.

It's not bad, but I suggest: The American Sound I Swore I Had Purchased My Last Turntable and then Someone Went and Made This Phonographic Record Playing Machine.

Not quite as catchy as AS-2000, granted, but probably more truthful as rockitman's thread title has alluded to.

Best,

853guy

 

[microstrip]

Thanks, Mike. Very much looking forward to how this thread unfolds and the potential insights into what makes this exceptional that we can hopefully all benefit from. If rockitman and ddk have additional thoughts/comments/insights, I'll very gladly welcome them.



Perhaps it's a variation of this (though I have no idea of the specifics):

https://audiocirc.com/2016/10/21/air-bearing/

(Taken from airbearing's site. On a personal note, I've found airbearing's AudioCirc blog to contain a wealth of beautifully photographed historical and contemporary insights, all of which have created much envy for someone sworn to audio-related financial conservatism for the time being.)

Best,

853guy

It is a mandatory site - I share his love for the Crystal Dreamline cables and the Audio Research REF40! Although my air bearing platter Forsell with air bearing flywheel is now fulfilling his task, in my "upgraditis chronic" I consider four turntables - the Caeles, owned by airbearing, the EMT927, the American Sound and transforming a Neumann VMS 66 lathe in a great turntable ...

 

[bonzo75]

It is a mandatory site - I share his love for the Crystal Dreamline cables and the Audio Research REF40! Although my air bearing platter Forsell with air bearing flywheel is now fulfilling his task, in my "upgraditis chronic" I consider four turntables - the Caeles, owned by airbearing, the EMT927, the American Sound and transforming a Neumann VMS 66 lathe in a great turntable ...

Crystal Absolute Dream speaker cables are the best I have heard, though I have not gone around comparing many. AR Ref 10 is my favorite pre so far. A Caeles prototype is part of one of my favorite rooms, though not necessarily because of the Caeles. The pic is at the bottom and the arm has now been replaced by a Schroeder. http://zero-distortion.org/silvercorewesternelectricshornssets/

 

[Tango]

I consider four turntables - the Caeles, owned by airbearing, the EMT927, the American Sound and transforming a Neumann VMS 66 lathe in a great turntable ...

Funny, three of the four you mentioned were also on my list. However, for Caeles, Airbearing got the last one. I think he together with the designer got this last unit to work properly...even better than the former units. Now there is no longer Caeles but Refent. David's Thor's Hammer I think is much less fidgety and earth quake proved. Can have up to 4 arms without having to modified like Caeles. They both sure should sound terrificly "beyond" as David would say. These are truely objects of desire

Dream on,
Tang

 

[spiritofmusic]

Four arms? Four carts? Really?
I mean, I get 1 arm/stereo cart, 2nd arm/mono cart.
But the other two arms/carts?
As I say, really?
I mean, I don't see the digital crazies running multiple dacs, tubed, SS etc, or two servers etc.

 

[bonzo75]

Four arms? Four carts? Really?
I mean, I get 1 arm/stereo cart, 2nd arm/mono cart.
But the other two arms/carts?
As I say, really?
I mean, I don't see the digital crazies running multiple dacs, tubed, SS etc, or two servers etc.

It's hard to find one right digital. It is easy to find many good analog components, just different. Check the threads, they can be so polarized on digital (whether MQA or dac) while there is so much love exchanging analog experiences.

 

[Ron Resnick]

"Thor's Hammer" has already been used by Wilson Audio for its current top-of-the-line subwoofer.

Maybe "Hephaestus' Anvil" as a nickname for the AS-2000?

(Hephaestus was the son of Zeus and the Greek god of metalworking.)

 

[Tango]

"Thor's Hammer" has already been used by Wilson Audio for its current top-of-the-line subwoofer.

Darn. Too late again . I like this name.

 

[Ron Resnick]

thanks Ron.



it's not the acoustic air-borne feedback that is the issue. it's the structure borne feedback. until you get those Gryphon's firing you won't know about the feedback. my floor is 6 inches of concrete and just on female vocals I got feedback. likely in a separate room there will be no issue, but be open to it.

i'm in the hallway next to my room with a load bearing wall between me and the speakers and still get resonance from my bass towers.......750 pounds of low frequency love. you will have the same. the concrete floor is like a huge sink holding the energy. and properly energized, so would a massive steel plate tabletop. an impedance layer needs to isolate the structure borne resonance.

some of this is a matter of taste and choice of presentation. warmth over articulation......not necessarily into the area we think of as distortion.

I am open to it, Mike! Thank you!

I think the AS-2000 will be a champion in the articulation department, so I would steer toward warmth from a tabletop.

 

[spiritofmusic]

Ron "Classical Scholar" Resnick.

 

[spiritofmusic]

Ron, re steering twds warmth from a platform, as we discussed it appears Mike strives for uber neutrality at all times, and prefers not to "tailor" a sound by deliberate mix of components.
And this is the first time I've heard of active isoln introducing warmth into a setup.

 

[Ron Resnick]

Very true, Marc. But not all of us can be Mike!

 

[spiritofmusic]

Ron, let me tell you, in my active v passive platform shootout, active was actually more overwarm and more euphonic.
Passive was truly more accurate.
And as you heard at mine, there was no lack of natural warmth.