Try as I might to toe the Wilson’s in, the sound quality deteriorates. I will keep experimenting. 10’ spread on the speakers currently.
I said I would never buy another Turntable...Argh !!!
- Thread starter rockitman
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Loses focus, bass muddies up. In “this” large air volume room, straight away sounds the best.I will still play with spread and distance from listening position....trying various toe iterations while I’m at it. I don’t hold out much hope for the “toe” crowd as the whole room sounds great in addition to the listening chair when fired straight away into the room.
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i'm guessing that with more 'toe in' the back window wall behind the speakers is more involved, and causing the confusion. the straight away orientation avoids that aspect mostly. if that wall was really dampened then toe in might be better in some ways, but it could be overall worse in other ways and the 'look and feel' of the room would be harmed. the floor and ceiling are essentially involved the same with either orientation, and the side walls are quite far away from the pictures.
in my room, which while large is not as large as Chris's, none the less is very effected by that wall behind the speakers. my speaker fronts are 9 feet from that wall. i have an 8 foot wide round diffuser covered in fabric. every tiny thing i do to that wall is audible. figuring out that wall and it's role in my sound was key to figuring out my system issues.
i'm guessing that with more 'toe in' the back window wall behind the speakers is more involved, and causing the confusion. the straight away orientation avoids that aspect mostly. if that wall was really dampened then toe in might be better in some ways, but it could be overall worse in other ways and the 'look and feel' of the room would be harmed. the floor and ceiling are essentially involved the same with either orientation, and the side walls are quite far away from the pictures.
in my room, which while large is not as large as Chris's, none the less is very effected by that wall behind the speakers. my speaker fronts are 9 feet from that wall. i have an 8 foot wide round diffuser covered in fabric. every tiny thing i do to that wall is audible. figuring out that wall and it's role in my sound was key to figuring out my system issues.
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How far are you from the chair, and what are the distances of the speakers from side and rear walls? We can look at what frequencies are affected the most.
Steve Williams
Site Founder, Site Co-Owner, Administrator
Here's my thought on your thoughts
I find it difficult to understand that this speaker loses focus with no toe in. Its an antonym to me. This speaker creates focus by virtue of many things, one of which is toe in. So for me I find the concept of no toe in provides better focus is difficult for me.
Here's a caveat for you to consider Christian. I've done this experiment and was staggered by the result. It is documented here in my system blog and it was something that Nick Doshi taught me when he was at my house setting up his tape pre. My room was very new at the time and everything was in flux.When we listened, we both agreed that the speakers seem to be way to focused. He suggested that I move my speakers laterally by one inch and toe out by a further 1/4" (IIRC-I need to check my system blog), He suggested I put painters tape on the top of my chair on either side of my head. He said with a laser light shining down the inside wall of each speaker make mark on the laser tape before and after the slight speaker change. Before any change the laser light shined on the outside of my head directly below my ear. So, indeed the speaker was acutely focused
After an ever so slight lateral move and and even smaller toe out, we repeated the laser beam and when recorded on the painter's tape the difference was 9".
To me that was a staggering finding but the net sonic effect was so positive that it proved to me that ever so slight toe in or out makes a huge difference at the listening position
My point is that Wilson's are designed as a precise focusing instrument and to achieve FOCUS, you need toe in
Mike, I hear and understand exactly what you're saying but your speakers are totally different and I'm not so certain that this is the cause.
I'm not being contrarian. I am suggesting to Christian that so little changers with toe in cause such big changes at the listening position and it wouldn't hurt to try inasmuch as the speakers are on casters.
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Steve, only the tweeter at it's higher end can beam anywhere near as tight as a laser. When you go off-axis different frequencies will have a bit different power response (polar plot, or how flat the frequency response is). Some speakers radiate very well, so they can easily toe out some without losing anything from direct radiation, but the room may change some of what is happening.
I don’t know why everyone wants your head back in the vice even when you tell them it doesn’t sound right
?david
as i mentioned, 'i'm guessing'......unless i could try some considerable absorption on that wall it's just a supposition based on my experience.
as far as the speakers being totally different i would disagree with that. they are both large tall dynamic cone speakers. they have much more in common than they differ.
The assumption that there’s a problem with Chris’s room is totally wrong, the space has wonderful acoustics and unlike most listening rooms it’s very balanced and the sound is almost the same no matter where you are in the big room. IME toe in/out is always the compromised position and good only enough for a qick setup.
david
david
I don’t know why everyone wants your head back in the vice even when you tell them it doesn’t sound right
david
What MikeL says regarding the back wall makes sense to me.
All,
Before David arrived, I had them toed in fully (to Wilson Spec) like my old house. Bass was really bloated. This was alleviated somewhat by bringing the speakers out more into the room. There is only so far you can go before they are literally in the middle of the room. Right now they are 4' from the back wall. I can bring them out more and see what happens, maybe as much as two more feet and try full toe but would rather not have them that far into the room aesthetically...I will not room treat this room to support making a toed in configuration sound good for one chair. As it stands now, it sounds great for everyone in the room including the center chair. Time will tell where all this leads
Steve Williams
Site Founder, Site Co-Owner, Administrator
Chris
This is a journey and not a destination. We are learning vicariously through your experience.
This is a journey and not a destination. We are learning vicariously through your experience.
You know, if they measure at all like the XLF, which is probably somewhat of a house sound, it makes sense. It's not like no one has ever talked about putting a hump at the higher bass to make all the bass sound really powerful. But in a smaller room maybe the mix of gain and modes&nodes equal it out better than Christians really big air space.
Today’s listening view. Lamm LP1 setup. 3 of 4 arms setup. Graham 12” Koetsu Coral Diamond, Lyra Olympos SL Mono on 3012 R, SPU A95 on rear 3012R. Colibri Sig to go on final 3012R.
Mine still hasn’t broken in. I have SPU Century waiting to mount once I use A95 for a while...
What a great shot with the snow trough those fantastic windows, to bad you
left that plastic bin in front of the amp, or Nelson Pass could have used it
in a brochure !
You seem to often favor the warmer cartridge choices. Is it a solid state versus
tube choice, or just because you are a lover of all music types (also rock) ?
Tang’s choices seem to reflect that he rarely plays less than perfect records.
Most of his cartridges are borderline analytical.
What a great shot with the snow trough those fantastic windows, to bad you
left that plastic bin in front of the amp, or Nelson Pass could have used it
in a brochure !
You seem to often favor the warmer cartridge choices. Is it a solid state versus
tube choice, or just because you are a lover of all music types (also rock) ?
Tang’s choices seem to reflect that he rarely plays less than perfect records.
Most of his cartridges are borderline analytical.
Thank you. Quick iPhone pic. I can do better with an slr and a little cleanup.
I listen to a full array of music....Classic/Progressive Rock, Classic Pop, Golden Age Jazz and Classical(Full Orchestra/Chamber), not so much with opera. I like variety for carts. Decisions on what I use are not related to the basic tonal balance of the system as a whole. Variety is the spice of life and bayonet type arms make that easy to do.
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