I can't believe it

[microstrip]

After waiting 5 months to get my Counterpoint SA-5.1 back from Mike Elliot and only having it back less than one month, the left channel is now dead. I was hoping that the line stage tube in the left channel went south, but that wasn't it. I installed a new pair of tubes in the line stage and no dice. I swapped the interconnects to the amp and the problem just moved to the to the other channel. This is really a bummer. (...) .

As far as I could see at the SA-5.1 schematic the regulated power suplly seems to be shared between channels - the fault should be something really simple. I would immediately look for the output capacitors and check for the voltage at both terminals of the two channels. If one of them is zero and the non-zero (connected to the tube plates) in both channels is the same voltage most surely it is just a broken wire or a bad connection at the switches or volume control. If there is a muting system it can be the muting relay or switch.

Unhappily thousands of miles separate us - otherwise I would lend you my Jadis JPL just to keep you out of the influence of solid state people

 

[mep]

As far as I could see at the SA-5.1 schematic the regulated power suplly seems to be shared between channels - the fault should be something really simple. I would immediately look for the output capacitors and check for the voltage at both terminals of the two channels. If one of them is zero and the non-zero (connected to the tube plates) in both channels is the same voltage most surely it is just a broken wire or a bad connection at the switches or volume control. If there is a muting system it can be the muting relay or switch.

Unhappily thousands of miles separate us - otherwise I would lend you my Jadis JPL just to keep you out of the influence of solid state people

Microstrip-Thanks for the great response. I would love to hear your Jadis preamp with my Jadis amp! I suspect it is a bad solder connection on the new DACT volume pot. Michael Elliott has requested I send it back and he will pay shipping both ways and the repair is free. It will move straight to the head of the line and it should be returned to me right away.

 

[RBFC]

That sounds like excellent customer service! Being without gear makes the audiophile life pretty tough....

Lee

 

[DaveyF]

Mark,
That's great service you are getting from Mike. When he used to have his factory here in San Diego, he was also very well thought of. As you know, i used to own one of his SA 3's and it had to go for service once...Counterpoint took care of it right away, no issues.
In some ways, it is a shame that Counterpoint went under, for a while they were making gear that was as good as any, today i suspect that they still could be as competitive as anyone.Pity, Mike's current business seems to not be able to get off the ground like his Counterpoint business did, IMO.

 

[Phelonious Ponk]

Hope you get it back and doing all the things that thrill you soon, Mark.

Tim

 

[mep]

Thanks guys. Tubes are starting to drive me crazy. The funny thing is some guy who bought a Jadis Defy 7 on Ebay has been emailing me for instructions on how to bias the amp. He is switching over to tubes from one of the Krell monsters. It seems his Krell keeps blowing the output transistors in one of his channels every other year or so and now he wants to switch over to tubes!

 

[mep]

Ok. I seemed to have discovered a chink in the armor. Since my SA-5.1 is in San Diego, I was forced to pull out a Yamaha CA-400 integrated and press it into service as a preamp. I have been trying to convince myself that it sounds pretty good as a line stage, but not so good as a phono stage. I had to break out my ARC PH-3SE to handle those chores. So last night I spooled up a 2 track 15 ips tape I made from LPs sometime ago and that I know very well. The first cut was Ricky Lee Jones "Chuck E's in Love" which is a really good recording. It sounded like Ricky Lee Jones had caught a cold when she started singing. This is also a recording with really good dynamic range. I felt like someone had applied a compressor and squashed the dynamics last night. I had to get up and turn it off.

Now I know I'm not reaching very high up on the food chain with this Yamaha piece. This was not even close to being the best of what Yamaha had to offer. I think it would be interesting to hear a preamp that Yamaha designed as a statement piece and was an all-out assault on the state of the art. Something that comes close to that definition would be the Yamaha C2a preamp.

If I didn't know better, I would say the Yamaha CA-400 preamp section was designed to optimize CD playback. But of course that would be incorrect as CDs weren't invented yet when this piece hit the market. However, the CA-400 sounds best when playing back digital files that have been converted back to analog via the E-MU 0404. Nothing except digital sounds *right* through the CA-400/PL 400 Series 2 combo.

People often speak of having a system optimized for either digital or analog playback. I never quite understood that unless your stereo is a one-trick pony and you can only play back one or the other. In my case, I want to play back all formats as well as I can and I don't understand how competently designed electronics and speakers won't be "optimized" for both analog and digital playback. Here is a perfect example of a system that clearly favors digital. The question is why? I understand the phono stage is very so-so. But I don't understand why R2R playback has been compromised to the degree it has. All fingers point to the line stage just not being very good. And the reality is, it's a very old piece that was built to a strict budget so it shouldn't be a shocker that it's not a world-beater. What is surprising is that digital still sounds as good as it does when normally this is my least preferred medium. There's a story here somewhere. I'm just not sure what it is yet.

I'm really looking forward to getting my 5.1 back as I know what magic lurks in that box and what I should expect from all formats. The Jadis has still been benched and we will see if it can get back in the game.

 

[fas42]

So last night I spooled up a 2 track 15 ips tape I made from LPs sometime ago and that I know very well. ...
I felt like someone had applied a compressor and squashed the dynamics last night. I had to get up and turn it off.
...
However, the CA-400 sounds best when playing back digital files that have been converted back to analog via the E-MU 0404.

I would be wondering whether the tape deck power supply is upsetting the Yamaha through the mains. If this is not already the case, try running the deck off a different circuit in the house. Or possibly there's the equivalent to the earth loop problem: both the R2R and Yamaha are earthed and the loop is completed through the IC.

Frank

 

[mep]

A little good news on a day filled with bad news. My 5.1 is fixed and is on the way back to me. I will have it in time for next weekend's listening sessions. Also, I bought a Yamaha C2a preamp which was one of Yamaha's statement preamps back in the early 1980s. For those who love specifications, the specifications of the C2a are still quite impressive today. Super good signal to noise ratios with very low distortion. Rumor has it that the phono section is very, very good with the ability to handle low output MC cartridges down to .1mv. It arrived tonight and is currently lashed up to my system with the digital file server pumping music through it. First impresssions are that it's super clean and sounds damn good after only being on for a short time. Since I can't count on my tubes being reliable, I need to have a backup preamp that I can count on and live with. The C2a is a very heavy solid preamp built to the nines for its day. It sold for $1000 when new and in today's money and pricing craziness, it would be at least a $3K preamp. So far so good.

 

[Phelonious Ponk]

A little good news on a day filled with bad news. My 5.1 is fixed and is on the way back to me. I will have it in time for next weekend's listening sessions. Also, I bought a Yamaha C2a preamp which was one of Yamaha's statement preamps back in the early 1980s. For those who love specifications, the specifications of the C2a are still quite impressive today. Super good signal to noise ratios with very low distortion. Rumor has it that the phono section is very, very good with the ability to handle low output MC cartridges down to .1mv. It arrived tonight and is currently lashed up to my system with the digital file server pumping music through it. First impresssions are that it's super clean and sounds damn good after only being on for a short time. Since I can't count on my tubes being reliable, I need to have a backup preamp that I can count on and live with. The C2a is a very heavy solid preamp built to the nines for its day. It sold for $1000 when new and in today's money and pricing craziness, it would be at least a $3K preamp. So far so good.

That's a great preamp:

http://www.thevintageknob.org/yamaha-C-2a.html

Where did you find it? Have you tried it with R2R or your turntable yet?

Tim

 

[mep]

Tim-I found it on Audiogon. Paid $350 plus shipping which is just stupid considering how good this preamp is. The guy I bought it from has already asked me if I will sell it back to him and he will refund all money including shipping. It seems the preamp he bought to replace the Yamaha isn't so swift. And no, I haven't had a chance to listen to either LP or tape through it. I should hear both this weekend. I removed my Benz glider from my ET-2 in anticipation of having the SP-10 MKII/SME 312S set up in my new plinth which ending up being a disaster. I will probably go ahead and mount my Denon 103R cartridge in the ET-2 and listen to that combo until I get my plinth mess sorted out.

I can see why the previous owner wants his C2a back.

 

[garylkoh]

Tim-I found it on Audiogon. Paid $350 plus shipping which is just stupid considering how good this preamp is. The guy I bought it from has already asked me if I will sell it back to him and he will refund all money including shipping. It seems the preamp he bought to replace the Yamaha isn't so swift. And no, I haven't had a chance to listen to either LP or tape through it. I should hear both this weekend. I removed my Benz glider from my ET-2 in anticipation of having the SP-10 MKII/SME 312S set up in my new plinth which ending up being a disaster. I will probably go ahead and mount my Denon 103R cartridge in the ET-2 and listen to that combo until I get my plinth mess sorted out.

I can see why the previous owner wants his C2a back.

Mark, Since you're already in shock, listen to the DL103R with more rather than less VTF (up to 3.2g), and/or put a 5g weight on the headshell and stick with 2.3g VTF. The DL103 was first released in 1962, and even the "R" version requires a heavier than usual arm. Then, IMHO it outperforms cartridges costing up to 10 times.

I recall ET selling a heavy arm wand just for people using these low-compliance cartridges, but most audiophiles wanted low mass, and they eventually capitulated and sold a carbon-fibre arm wand when that was exactly opposite to what was "right".

 

[mep]

Gary-I will try it with heavier VTF as you recommend. Denon recommends 2.5g plus or minus .3. By the way, I have the old version ET-2 arm, not the carbon-fiber arm. I will go for 3g and see what that does. The only thing about the C2a is that when you have it in the MC position, it automatically loads the cartridge at 50 ohms and you can't muck with it.

And Gary, that Adcom preamp that you wrote about before was designed by Nelson Pass. I found the review on Stereophile and the review was nothing but a love fest. The reviewer compared it with a ML preamp that sold for over $6K and he said even sighted he couldn't tell them apart let alone if he did a blind test. It has a balanced input and balanced output and supposedly sounds better using it in the balanced mode. Another great line stage for stupid little money if you can find one for sale.

 

[garylkoh]

I like things that are stupid value for money

The DL103R is a real, real gem and I "upgraded" to one from a much, much more expensive cartridge. You just have to set it up right. If you have the aluminum ET-2 arm, add the 5g (stick a NOS penny on the headshell with blutack). The DL013 needs about 1000 ohms loading. I use either the FM122 or the Burmester Ph100 phono stages with it.

The last two Adcom preamps I found for my friends was on eBay, not Audiogon. One I bought for $80 with one channel intermittent, replaced a resistor and gave it to a buddy. It's hard enough convincing my buddies that music is a good hobby to have, let alone convincing their wives that $6,000 is decent money to pay for a preamp!!

 

[mep]

I'm sure that there are lots of sonic gems out there that have been cast by the wayside through the years as *better* pieces have come out and replaced them. If you think about the relationship between electronics and speakers, you can see how there is certain amount of a "dog chasing its tail" going on here. For instance, you buy a better preamp and you now see how good your power amp really is. Or you buy a better power amp and you see how good your preamp really is. Or you buy a new pair of speakers that are really good and it shows you things about your electronics that you didn't *get* before. You can do endless perturbations on these scenarios and wonder how anyone really knows how good a piece of gear actually is. Which brings me to the Yamaha C2a preamp...

I have not spent near enough time with the C2a to render any type of final judgment on its sound quality. But I will tell you this; it's a damn fine preamp and one I think I could live with over the long-haul. Stunning is the word that comes to mind as I listen to a variety of music on a variety of formats.

Tim asked me before If had listened to R2R and LPs through the C2a yet and at the time Tim asked the question, I hadn't. Now I have. They both sound really, really good through the C2a. I wish that the C2a didn't have fixed 50 ohm loading in the MC mode. If you load MC cartridges down too much, it tends to rob the top end and make it sound closed in and dull. In reality, there is no clear-cut consensus on MC loading. Some will load (in reality unload) every MC cartridge at 47k because that is the only *right* setting (think HP and his band of merry-men followers). Others think that all MC cartridges should be loaded down in order to function correctly and not have a runaway top end (think Dave Wilson when he used to be a reviewer for TAS). The reality is that once you get above around 1K, you have pretty much unloaded the cartridge. All I can say is that last night when listening to my Denon 103R (the Benz Glider has been removed and is awaiting its new home on the SME 312S), I thought it sounded really good. I heard plenty of top-end air and didn't neurose over the loading. My 2 track 15 ips tapes sounded scary good. "Stunning" was the operative word of the night.

Even with digital, I'm hearing things that I didn't before. One of the things is notes trailing off into blackness whereas before, they just used to come to an abrupt end. There is a decay there now that had gone unnoticed and unheard before. The C2a is spooky quiet with its excellent signal-to-noise ratio. Even when you think your electronics are really quiet, sometimes there is another level of quiet that makes you take notice. I took notice.

In closing, I do think that the Yamaha C2a may well be a sonic gem that has been discarded for the new flavors of the month (and years) that have come after it and surely must be better. After all, none of us have ever bought a new something for our systems and thought it didn't sound as good as the older piece it replaced right? The fact that it sounds as good as it does (and it sounds damn good) and I only paid $350 plus shipping is just crazy. Those who believe in their wallet more than their ears would never consider things like this.

When my expensive gear breaks down, I tend to buy something else to listen to during the repair process because I don't like to be without music. I knew when I sent my Counterpoint SA-5.1 off it was going to be a long-haul before I saw it back again. That's why I bought something that I thought would be really nice and I could easily get my money back out of when the Counterpoint came back. So I bought an ARC LS-17 and an ARC PH-3SE to listen to. I never warmed up to the LS-17 because it sounded like tubes trying to masquerade as SS. When my brother offered to lend me his Counterpoint until mine returned, I jumped at the chance and happily sold the LS-17 (I kept the PH-3SE for safe-keeping). I returned my bro's 5.1 when mine came back and I certainly had no idea it would have a freakish problem that took out the left channel. In retrospect, I'm glad it did because otherwise, I wouldn't have gotten mad and bought a SS preamp and I would have never heard the C2a. The 5.1 might have some 'splaining to do when it comes back next week.

 

[Steve Williams]

So Mark

are you now an officially designated solid state guy?

 

[mep]

So Mark

are you now an officially designated solid state guy?

No, not yet. But I'm certainly enjoying what I'm listening to though. The Jadis is still sitting on the bench wondering when it's coming back into the game and the Counterpoint is on its way back to me due to arrive some time next week.

 

[microstrip]

So Mark

are you now an officially designated solid state guy?

Steve,

I think we should not consider Mark as a lost member of the tube troupe so quickly.

I also had some short time diversions in the solid state camp, but always returned to tube preamplifiers.

 

[mep]

Micro- I do hope that my 5.1 sounds better than the Yamaha for several reasons. 1.) it will reaffirm my faith in tube preamps. 2.) for the selfish reason that I have over $5K invested in the 5.1 (which I will never get back) and I would hate to get my butt whooped by a $350 preamp. And let's not forget that I still have my beloved Ampex 350s that are in the signal chain when I'm listening to R2R and they are pure tube.

The guy that sold me the C2a has been begging me to sell it back to him. I told him before that I might consider it after I hear the 5.1 when it comes back. After last night's listening session, I told him this morning that I was keeping it. He was happy to see that a C2a has popped up on Ebay and he is hoping to win the auction. I took a look a the pictures and it clearly is not in as nice physical shape as the one he sold me. With 6 days left in the auction, there are 6 bidders and the price is over $160. It would be funny if he had to pay more for a C2a that was not as nice as the one he sold me. But not real funny.

 

[microstrip]

As I say all the time, it is a matter of system. You can have the best preamplifier in the world (something that does not exist ...) and if it does not match your system (room included) it will not sound good.

Recently I also went solid state for a few days - a complete Krell system using their entry models - S300i and S350i CD. Not bad, but I still prefer my tubes (unhappily as they are 10 times more expensive).