I am a luddite - in other words Mains Cable

[microstrip]

If I had a problem with a noisy power supply, should my first instinct be to tackle it with an audiophile power cable? Maybe it has "highly innovative conductor geometry" or "optimised dielectric ratios" - but I made those up, and I'm not the only one. Personally, I'd be looking to tackle it at source or by the direct engineering approach, not the boutique audio supplied-in-a-wooden-presentation-case approach.

Interesting. What means exactly "I'd be looking to tackle it at source or by the direct engineering approach"? Discarding the equipment? Going the DIY modifier way?

 

[Orb]

But they are designers of the cables? I would like to hear from the designer of an amplifier or other mains-powered component about why their creation might be sensitive to the mains cable.

Edit: I think we are in the realms of implying that electronic product designers are mundane plodders who merely 'engineer' their products and are unaware of the subtleties that might exist outside their box. At the same time we laud them as geniuses who know how to turn electronic components into virtual musical instruments. And then we are crediting cable 'designers' as people who outsmart the plodding electronics designers by understanding how all existing and all future products yet to exist, work, plus they know what comes out of all mains wall sockets and can, with nothing more than wire, insulation and (maybe) shielding, influence what comes out from the other end of the amp. It does not compute.

Gary Koh designs speakers and amplifiers, and has discussed in the past aspects of mains and amplifier issues (although not necessarily power cables in the way you would like as a complete answer).
Cheers
Orb

 

[Groucho]

Interesting. What means exactly "I'd be looking to tackle it at source or by the direct engineering approach"? Discarding the equipment? Going the DIY modifier way?

Well hopefully it all meets EMC regulations i.e. is 'Compatible' with other equipment. But by "direct engineering" I mean filtering (e.g. ferrites, chokes etc.), shielding, isolation and the correct grounding (as previous poster over the page mentioned). If you ever take equipment to be approved for EMC they are very keen on applying ferrites until it passes! A different mains cable doesn't enter into it. If that doesn't work or ferrites are unacceptable, the design has to be modified more fundamentally.

I get cognitive dissonance when audiophile cable people play the engineering card. It feels like trying to use homeopathy to fix a broken leg.

 

[ddk]

The SurgeX units I mod would fit your criteria. They will make a significant improvement without changing the character of the system. I've tried other filters in the SurgeX, additional capacitive filtering, PFC and ground isolation and these have produced significant coloration. The bone stock SurgeX units really are properly designed, they just need better parts to be used with high resolution audio systems to avoid adding grain. SurgeX has customers like NASA, Boeing, Carnegie Hall, etc... giving them a little more credibility than most typical audiophile stuff.

Hi Dave,
Are you talking about a particular model or all their products in general? I looked around the site but I can't find anything about what's in their boxes. RFI/EMI filtering, is it just a choke or circuit, and can it be disconnected or bypassed. How do they do their power conditioning?

david

PS. Which parts do you update?

 

[Loheswaran]

Dear all. Thanks as ever for the contributions.
I wasn't seeking to open a pandoras , but it is fabulous that people have thus far dedicated so much time.
For what it's worth my reading is:
Regeneration is very costly, and can run the risk of compressing dynamics under load.
Conditioners run the same risk too but not to the same extent
I don't understand 'shunt' circuits to give any fair explanation save to say they appear to get positive results. (I can drive a car but cannot design a sat nav, gearbox, or engine)

Groucho appears to have something IMHO as to amp designers. I know that my amp manufacturer shuns such fancy cables in their faq section save for a power lead that they sell - which is not expensive nor essential. Alas my Lavardin it has only 55watts max output, and may not present the load of amps delivering 1kW in dynamic swings. It's the only disappointment about my amp and why I thinking of a more powerful amp for a wider range of speakers. I also have other electric components, so they will benefit to power supply upgrades.
I only digress by way of explanation.
It is power that I am seeking to address...
Out of interest do people here use a specific mains/spur like Furutech or Supra low rad, or a generic twin and earth off an electricians reel?

 

[DaveC]

Hi Dave,
Are you talking about a particular model or all their products in general? I looked around the site but I can't find anything about what's in their boxes. RFI/EMI filtering, is it just a choke or circuit, and can it be disconnected or bypassed. How do they do their power conditioning?

david

PS. Which parts do you update?

The SurgeX site is big, but they have a lot of information and technical details if you dig around, far more info than most give as well as white papers on proper electrical installation techniques for large systems. The features are grade A-1-1 series mode surge protection, emi/rfi filtration, inrush current limiting and under/over voltage shutdown. The emi/rfi filter is a slightly more advanced circuit design than typical, there is info and specs on the site. It can't be bypassed but it is completely transparent. More info on their tech is in the "knowledge base" section of the site here:

http://www.surgex.com/library.html

All their products are basically the same with different form and a few features added or deleted. I use the 20 amp versions, the SX1120 and SEQ, and replace/upgrade all electrolytic caps, wiring, connectors, remove the remote function and add IEC inlets and upgrade receptacles. The improvements come mostly from the wire, connectors and receptacles being upgraded. The stock units are made using parts that add some harshness/grain, after they are modded they sound much smoother and quieter and have no downsides. More info:

http://www.zenwaveaudio.com/surgex/

 

[microstrip]

Well hopefully it all meets EMC regulations i.e. is 'Compatible' with other equipment. But by "direct engineering" I mean filtering (e.g. ferrites, chokes etc.), shielding, isolation and the correct grounding (as previous poster over the page mentioned). If you ever take equipment to be approved for EMC they are very keen on applying ferrites until it passes! A different mains cable doesn't enter into it. If that doesn't work or ferrites are unacceptable, the design has to be modified more fundamentally.

I get cognitive dissonance when audiophile cable people play the engineering card. It feels like trying to use homeopathy to fix a broken leg.

Unfortunately the EMC regulations do not aim at achieving high-quality in stereo and are not enough in high-end.
IMHO your analogy is extreme and ridiculous. Not a good way to debate any think. We should stop here.

 

[Groucho]

Unfortunately the EMC regulations do not aim at achieving high-quality in stereo and are not enough in high-end.

Nevertheless, to manufacture a device that doesn't work well with other equipment that complies with the Electromagnetic Compatibility standards would seem to be a 'broken' piece of equipment would it not? It is either that, or the manufacturer specifies exactly what extra boxes would be needed to make his box perform OK. You mentioned DIY earlier on. Trial-and-error swapping of $1000 cables and audiophile power conditioners etc. seems to be a rather extreme and expensive form of DIY.

Sorry if my analogy bothered you.

 

[Speedskater]

Nevertheless, to manufacture a device that doesn't work well with other equipment that complies with the Electromagnetic Compatibility standards would seem to be a 'broken' piece of equipment would it not? It is either that, or the manufacturer specifies exactly what extra boxes would be needed to make his box perform OK. You mentioned DIY earlier on. Trial-and-error swapping of $1000 cables and audiophile power conditioners etc. seems to be a rather extreme and expensive form of DIY.

Exactly!
But then using 'good engineering practice' and boutique audiophile products in the same thought is an oxymoron.

 

[Groucho]

...using 'good engineering practice' and boutique audiophile products in the same thought is an oxymoron.

I am glad I am not the only one who has spotted this!

 

[DaveC]

Exactly!
But then using 'good engineering practice' and boutique audiophile products in the same thought is an oxymoron.

Painting with far too broad a brush imo. My products are both, thankyouverymuch!

 

[microstrip]

Nevertheless, to manufacture a device that doesn't work well with other equipment that complies with the Electromagnetic Compatibility standards would seem to be a 'broken' piece of equipment would it not? It is either that, or the manufacturer specifies exactly what extra boxes would be needed to make his box perform OK. You mentioned DIY earlier on. Trial-and-error swapping of $1000 cables and audiophile power conditioners etc. seems to be a rather extreme and expensive form of DIY.

Sorry if my analogy bothered you.

Ok, you are dangerously approaching the 70's japanese receiver dream, all measuring the same and predictively sounding the same. Fortunately the high-end is the opposite - using any means to get a better, more enjoyable sound quality, extracting the maximum from a limited format. If a "broken" piece sounds better (this means has our preference) than a "non-broken" piece we happily pick it.

I agree that power cable swapping is most of the time a trial and error DIY activity - unless you are rich enough to pay someone you trust to do it. It can be expensive, yes, but can also be non-expensive - it depends on us. Why do you consider it extreme?

 

[amirm]

Yes, this form of isolation became even more important (within my system at least) when integrating equipment using a switch mode power supply.

One of the benefits power cable manufacturers tout goes against this. Namely they talk about fast transient response to high current needs of the equipment. Well, anything with fast transients by definition filters less than another cable! You get fast transients because you reduced how much high frequency filtering is happening. That is the opposite of any kind of high frequency filter.

 

[DaveC]

One of the benefits power cable manufacturers tout goes against this. Namely they talk about fast transient response to high current needs of the equipment. Well, anything with fast transients by definition filters less than another cable! You get fast transients because you reduced how much high frequency filtering is happening. That is the opposite of any kind of high frequency filter.

Agreed, reactive components in the AC path have to be used with some caution as they often seem to cause more harm than good, and same with speakers... woofers with excessive inductance will sound slow if asked to play above subwoofer frequencies.

 

[Groucho]

Ok, you are dangerously approaching the 70's japanese receiver dream, all measuring the same and predictively sounding the same. Fortunately the high-end is the opposite - using any means to get a better, more enjoyable sound quality, extracting the maximum from a limited format. If a "broken" piece sounds better (this means has our preference) than a "non-broken" piece we happily pick it.

When you say it is your preference, on what do you base that judgement? How do you know that one mains cable over another is your preference?

 

[Groucho]

Ok, you are dangerously approaching the 70's japanese receiver dream, all measuring the same and predictively sounding the same.

Technically speaking, the EMC susceptibility pass/fail need not be a measurement. You just need a way of establishing that it continues to operate satisfactorily. Just hire in some audiophiles to listen and verify that it continues to "sound musical with no hint of darkness or loss of rhythm", perhaps..?

 

[microstrip]

When you say it is your preference, on what do you base that judgement? How do you know that one mains cable over another is your preference?

We had many threads on preference. I used the word in the sense - it sounds better for me, IMHO. If you are interested I can look for my old posts about my preferences in WBF and post a link. In summary, it is due to my memories of live sound of acoustic instruments, mainly classical music. I think the important aspect in this thread is why power cables sound different, not which we prefer. And now perhaps why equipment that passes EMC regulations is also sensitive to power cables.

 

[microstrip]

Technically speaking, the EMC susceptibility pass/fail need not be a measurement. You just need a way of establishing that it continues to operate satisfactorily. Just hire in some audiophiles to listen and verify that it continues to "sound musical with no hint of darkness or loss of rhythm", perhaps..?

From the ESTI site

In the case of the EMC Directive, the essential requirements are that equipment shall be designed and manufactured such that:

the electromagnetic disturbance it generates does not exceed a level allowing radio and telecommunications equipment and other apparatus to operate as intended;

and

the apparatus has an adequate level of intrinsic immunity to electromagnetic disturbance to enable it to operate as intended.

Anyway we are not going nowhere, as far as I know they do not consider the specific requirements of high-end hobbyist's. But we must always consider the two aspects when addressing power cables.

 

[TBone]

One of the benefits power cable manufacturers tout goes against this. Namely they talk about fast transient response to high current needs of the equipment. Well, anything with fast transients by definition filters less than another cable! You get fast transients because you reduced how much high frequency filtering is happening. That is the opposite of any kind of high frequency filter.

Understood; but truth be told, without dedicated AC / grounding intervention, my CDP (w/pulse ps) performed at a level not remotely justifying it's cost. Gray and very dynamically restrained. That said, I've taken the player (thankfully, very light and easy to transport) to numerous systems just to help understand its particular sound/requirements. A chameleon of a player if ever I've heard one.

The thing is, this actually could be a case of the manufacturers pulse based power supply. I've seen measurements from one scrib(forget which) indicating it did have ps noise issues. I was made to understand that the manufacturer was aware of the issue; prone to its culture, they have since "upgraded" their ps. My unit was sent back to the manufacturer ~2005, the laser assembly updated with a newer unit (the old version worked fine, the new unit has an extra trim pot for more precise adjustment) and more importantly, its ps replaced with presumably a similar unit.

When it comes to cables, I'm neither here nor there. I've heard subtle or perhaps "placebo" type differences (mostly w/power cords) and on many an occasion, varying but obvious tonal differences simply by changing internal hookup wires. I understand that dielectric/material can offer differences, but it remains a mystery to me at times, especially with interconnect cables, how these differences could possibly exist - considering the other multiple passive devices (resistors, wires, switches, pots) within the signal path used by various equipment (especially pre-amps).

 

[DaveC]

When it comes to cables, I'm neither here nor there. I've heard subtle or perhaps "placebo" type differences (mostly w/power cords) and on many an occasion, varying but obvious tonal differences simply by changing internal hookup wires. I understand that dielectric/material can offer differences, but it remains a mystery to me at times, especially with interconnect cables, how these differences could possible exist - considering the other multiple passive devices (resistors, wires, switches, pots) within the signal path used by various equipment (especially pre-amps).

It all makes a cumulative difference. This is also where the water analogy to electricity breaks down, resistance in an electric circuit is linearly additive but this isn't the case for restricting the flow of water, so a low quality part doesn't necessarily "bottleneck" the system in the way it would the flow of water. However, using too many parts that add their own sound characteristics can definitely mask changes in the system. If you go from source to driver using high quality wire and connectors throughout the system it makes a massive difference.