Ferrari LaFerrari vs Bugatti Chiron

[NorthStar]

truthfully Bob, when I looked at the Bugatti I damn near barfed !

I do have fond memories from the mid-late sixties when the 'Big 3' turned out some amazing blue paint jobs !

I admit, I vomit a little bit.
Colors came on the subject; that expensive blue external color (sparkles of stars moving) from the first video, with orange interior...it's hard to not barf a little.

In the second video I didn't fare much better: two-tone external color (blue-black), and two-tone blue color interior ... I don't care how expensive it costs, both paint jobs...it's simply not my bag.

I'm a one-tone external color man (black) and a one-tone interior color man (cream).

But people come in all taste of rainbow colors; that goes for cars and homes too.
...Even loudspeakers. ...From virgin white to pitch black and anything between.

 

[accwai]

[...] I'm a one-tone external color man (black) and a one-tone interior color man (cream). But people come in all taste of rainbow colors; that goes for cars and homes too.

Pink, color of pigs:

Now speaking of pigs, this:

is a real pig, especially seen in person. Note the huge size difference between front and rear brake calipers. Weight transfer on braking must be brutal. Interestingly, just noticed the Toyota Supra V is the same thing:

Seriously?! A nearby Toyota dealership started having one in the showroom recently. "Nope, no test drives, sorry." They even lock the doors so you can't go inside and look around without being accompanied by a sales guys. Immediate impressions from the inside: rear view really restricted, brake and throttle pedals at very different depth levels, probably not meant to be hit at the same time. The interior feels plush and "fat" overall. Looking forward to trying one in the streets, but wouldn't be surprised if the feisty chihuahua attitude in the GT86, Tatsuya Tada's previous work, has been rounded away. We'll see...

 

[NorthStar]

Those three cars above, and their colors ... I'd buy this over those anytime ...

 

[accwai]

Those three cars above, and their colors ... I'd buy this over those anytime ...

So how much is that bike?

Now if I had more money than I know what to do with, highly likely it would be an i8 for daily driver:



It's the same kind of AWD hybrid layout as LMP1-h cars like the Porsche 919. Very clever in terms of balance and dynamics. And it's a 2+2. Who would have thought backseats in a mid-engined car would be possible...

 

[NorthStar]

I like the little pink fishing piggie on the door, how so cute.

* That BMW self-balancing bike above I believe is only a concept design @ this point.
And if so then the price (which I have no idea) is conceptually irrelevant.
But, from the few articles and videos and looking @ its design; I'd say it's not cheap.

 

[Al M.]

Interestingly, just noticed the Toyota Supra V is the same thing:

Seriously?! A nearby Toyota dealership started having one in the showroom recently. "Nope, no test drives, sorry." They even lock the doors so you can't go inside and look around without being accompanied by a sales guys. Immediate impressions from the inside: rear view really restricted, brake and throttle pedals at very different depth levels, probably not meant to be hit at the same time. The interior feels plush and "fat" overall. Looking forward to trying one in the streets, but wouldn't be surprised if the feisty chihuahua attitude in the GT86, Tatsuya Tada's previous work, has been rounded away. We'll see...

Saw a new Supra on Jay Leno's Garage show, driven by a race driver. Wow, just wow. This thing goes around the corners like a wild beast in the right hands...So, yeah, feisty, nothing rounded away. Friggin' impressive, all I can say.

 

[DaveC]

Saw a new Supra on Jay Leno's Garage show, driven by a race driver. Wow, just wow. This thing goes around the corners like a wild beast in the right hands...So, yeah, feisty, nothing rounded away. Friggin' impressive, all I can say.

Check out this test, it's actually kinda slow. The Honda Civic Type R is faster, the Camaro SS 1LE destroyed it, 1:11.5 vs 1:15.0, that's an eternity! And you can get the Camaro for about $5-10k less.

Times are given at 12:30

 

[Al M.]

Check out this test, it's actually kinda slow. The Honda Civic Type R is faster, the Camaro SS 1LE destroyed it, 1:11.5 vs 1:15.0, that's an eternity! And you can get the Camaro for about $5-10k less.

Times are given at 12:30

Thanks, fascinating video!

I am not sure if your conclusions are correct. The Camaro was 1:11.6 on Cup 2 tires, the Mustang was 1:12.8 on the same tires.

With these other tires tested in the Mustang/Supra shootout, the Mustang was 1:15.2 (much slower than on the Cup 2 tires), the Supra on these same other tires was slightly faster than that. So it would remain to be seen how the Supra would fare on the Cup 2 tires.

Regardless, in the Jay Leno Garage show I was impressed with, as they call it in the current video (where they were also impressed with it), the very "controlled power slide" of the Supra.

 

[DaveC]

My only conclusion was the Supra is pretty slow relative to some other cars at or even below it's price... and the new C8 Vette is going to be MUCH faster.

As far as tires, not having the Cup2s would cost the Camaro only a small amount, maybe .5 s, it's stock tires are very good. The Mustang PP2 at 1:12.8 has Cup2 tires standard, the Mustang PP1 that finished right behind the Supra does not, and the Supra does not. There are other differences, including tire size, that make up the difference between the 2 Mustangs, not just the type of tire.

For cars with high performance summer tires like the Michelin Pilot Sport 4S, the Cup2s would likely give them an extra 1 - 1.5 s or so on a track that long, so the Supra and PP1 Mustang's times (as well as all the other cars on the list except the top 2) could be that much faster.

Cup2s are not considered street tires really, though legal for street use, they only last a few thousand miles on the street and a few days on the track. The only reason the Camaro was tested with Cup2 tires was to make the comparison with the Mustang PP2 fair, which was another of their vids. That's why equipping a non-Shelby Mustang (or non-ZL1 Camaro) with them makes no sense, it's too expensive for a $40-50k car... I know it sounds strange but it's true, running a car on a track makes hifi audio pricing seem reasonable!

The Supra looks like a nice car, but it's timing, pricing, branding and competition are going to make them a tough sell.

 

[accwai]

Saw a new Supra on Jay Leno's Garage show, driven by a race driver. Wow, just wow. This thing goes around the corners like a wild beast in the right hands...So, yeah, feisty, nothing rounded away. Friggin' impressive, all I can say.

Got a link?

Check out this test, it's actually kinda slow. The Honda Civic Type R is faster, the Camaro SS 1LE destroyed it, 1:11.5 vs 1:15.0, that's an eternity! And you can get the Camaro for about $5-10k less.

Any idea where the track is? The test cars got Ontario license plates, and a Toronto based track driving school is listed as partner on thethrottlehouse.com website. The scenery doesn't look like any of the tracks around Toronto though. I'm just wondering how big the track is. Assuming the speedo numbers in the lower left during the hot laps are KPH, the speed around the track seems somewhat low. That means the track is on the small side right?

And too bad the stuff in lower left doesn't have RPM and gear. Those would be rather illuminating. Now can anybody comment on this dyno result from Car and Driver?

What's the implication on shift points?

[...] I know it sounds strange but it's true, running a car on a track makes hifi audio pricing seem reasonable! [...]

Yeah. It really isn't that hard for top tier audio installation to go well beyond the cars tested here. But once mature, running cost for the audio is rather trivial. On the other hand, running cost for tracking keeps piling up. Depending on what one is after though, one might be able to get one's kicks on a budget through karting.

 

[Al M.]

Got a link?

Here it is:
http://www.cnbc.com/live-tv/jay-lenos-garage/full-episode/modern-icons/1604731971759

Around the 20-minute mark.

 

[accwai]

Here it is:
http://www.cnbc.com/live-tv/jay-lenos-garage/full-episode/modern-icons/1604731971759

Around the 20-minute mark.

It won't show without you logging into a US TV service. Oh well...

Anyway, found this Supra run from the Magny-Cours Club Circuit:

Timings in the ranking at the end is rather interesting. Mustang Bullitt is essentially a slightly more powerful GT PP1 correct? And look at the relative timing for the M2 Competition. Also there seems to be significant difference between the Supra and Mustang in locations of the red braking segments in the bottom left little map in the Throttle House video. Thoughts?

Anyway, I have located the place that supplied the Supra to Throttle House. Might have a chance to see the car in person this weekend.

 

[DaveC]

Got a link?


Any idea where the track is? The test cars got Ontario license plates, and a Toronto based track driving school is listed as partner on thethrottlehouse.com website. The scenery doesn't look like any of the tracks around Toronto though. I'm just wondering how big the track is. Assuming the speedo numbers in the lower left during the hot laps are KPH, the speed around the track seems somewhat low. That means the track is on the small side right?

And too bad the stuff in lower left doesn't have RPM and gear. Those would be rather illuminating. Now can anybody comment on this dyno result from Car and Driver?

What's the implication on shift points?

Yeah. It really isn't that hard for top tier audio installation to go well beyond the cars tested here. But once mature, running cost for the audio is rather trivial. On the other hand, running cost for tracking keeps piling up. Depending on what one is after though, one might be able to get one's kicks on a budget through karting.

Throttle House has said in a few vids which track it is, I don't remember but it is local.

The Supra makes more power than advertised, which is true of pretty much every German car now. They either outright lie or give uncorrected results at high elevation, but the numbers they give are usually very close to wheel hp numbers. The Supra's dyno chart looks a lot like every modern turbo motor. Often optimal shift points are before redline, but sometimes is advanatgeous to not upshift if you're approaching a corner so the flexibility to continue to rev and not hit a rev limiter is nice.

Autocross is also much more economical vs tracking but you don't get nearly as much time and obviously are alone on the track.

HiFi can cost a lot upfront but look what it costs to maintain a Bugatti and it's obvious a top tier audio system is affordable vs owning a hypercar! I happen to own a SS 1LE Camaro, even with tires that cost about 1/4 what it costs to run Michelin Cup2 tires it's a VERY expensive hobby. Chevy will cover their performance cars under warranty even if driven on track, which helps a lot to go out there and drive it as intended without worrying about it so much. OTOH, Mustangs are not really intended for track use unless you buy a Shelby, which makes the PP2 Mustang even more of an odd car.

 

[DaveC]

It won't show without you logging into a US TV service. Oh well...

Anyway, found this Supra run from the Magny-Cours Club Circuit:

Timings in the ranking at the end is rather interesting. Mustang Bullitt is essentially a slightly more powerful GT PP1 correct? And look at the relative timing for the M2 Competition. Also there seems to be significant difference between the Supra and Mustang in locations of the red braking segments in the bottom left little map in the Throttle House video. Thoughts?

Anyway, I have located the place that supplied the Supra to Throttle House. Might have a chance to see the car in person this weekend.

Hmm, that Supra is WAY faster vs the Throttle House Supra! The Bullit and PP1 Mustang should be nearly the same, yes.

Boxster GTS posted a super fast time! I autox with a guy with one, we're somehow in the same class but I don't think my car is as capable.

 

[accwai]

[...] The Supra's dyno chart looks a lot like every modern turbo motor. Often optimal shift points are before redline, but sometimes is advanatgeous to not upshift if you're approaching a corner so the flexibility to continue to rev and not hit a rev limiter is nice.

What I find unusual is it loses 1/3 torque from 4750 to 6500 rpm. That's the reason for the HP curve being flat in that range. Wouldn't that encourage the using the lower range? The Supra has better published fuel economy than its little brother GT86 believe it or not. They probably geared it high to get those numbers.

Throttle House has said in a few vids which track it is, I don't remember but it is local.

I had a chance yesterday to sit in that Supra in the Throttle House video. Asked about the track in the video and was told it's near Toronto Motorsports Park but is a private facility that's sometimes available to journalists but not open to public. Exact location is unknown. Now TMP is a misnomer since it's ~120km from Toronto downtown. We're getting close to Niagara Falls now. But looking at TMP from above in Google Maps, layout of that test track is nothing like TMP. And nothing even remotely like a track can be found in the Cayuga area.

Then I wondered if the wind turbines at that track are in the same wind farm as those in TMP. Turns out that wind farm is enormous and TMP is at the western edge. Looking at the eastern edge yields a cluster that roughly matches the impression of that test track and Goggle Maps shows the cluster right in the middle of a track structure. The layout of the overhead view matches the video exactly, so this is it. Turns out the place is an aviation museum that used to be a military airport. It's called No.6 RCAF Dunnville Museum. ~30km east of TMP but still ~120km from Toronto. Here are the overhead view of the tracks at the same scale:

Toronto Motorsports Park: https://www.google.com/maps/place/T...42.903558,-79.8579848,1689m/data=!3m2!1e3!4b1
Throttle House test track: https://www.google.com/maps/place/N...eum/@42.8756886,-79.59752,1691m/data=!3m1!1e3