Eye Candy

[marty]

I find the enthusiasm for these extravagantly priced TTs very odd. Why do people insist on paying ludicrous amounts of money for a device that knowingly distorts the sound from the material being transduced. If the TT has a conventional tonearm, I'm afraid that's exactly what it does. Now, straight arm designs are another thing entirely. But the idea of paying tens of thousands of dollars for a distortion inducer called a conventional tonearm? I just don't get it.

 

[rockitman]

I find the enthusiasm for these extravagantly priced TTs very odd. Why do people insist on paying ludicrous amounts of money for a device that knowingly distorts the sound from the material being transduced.

I think the main reason Marty is because vinyl sounds better and provides a more enjoyable listening experience than digital. Distortion ? Not really an issue on well sorted, expensive tables as you say. People don't buy on price, they buy on performance they can afford..at least they ought to.

 

[Bill Hart]

I find the enthusiasm for these extravagantly priced TTs very odd. Why do people insist on paying ludicrous amounts of money for a device that knowingly distorts the sound from the material being transduced. If the TT has a conventional tonearm, I'm afraid that's exactly what it does. Now, straight arm designs are another thing entirely. But the idea of paying tens of thousands of dollars for a distortion inducer called a conventional tonearm? I just don't get it.

Funny. I use a linear arm (Airline) and am thinking of getting a 'conventional arm' (4Point) to add to my table. I agree with the rockit-man. Properly designed, executed and set-up, the performance can be just astounding.
If I were to make a car analogy (hate those sometimes but I'm gonna do it anyway), it's almost like the visceral experience of driving a well-sorted 50's race car, in terms of road feel and engagement in the experience vs the modern sports car that is technologically superior in every respect but is more sterile, detached and devoid of 'feel.'

 

[Mike Lavigne]

I find the enthusiasm for these extravagantly priced TTs very odd. Why do people insist on paying ludicrous amounts of money for a device that knowingly distorts the sound from the material being transduced. If the TT has a conventional tonearm, I'm afraid that's exactly what it does. Now, straight arm designs are another thing entirely. But the idea of paying tens of thousands of dollars for a distortion inducer called a conventional tonearm? I just don't get it.

Marty,

i think the idea that vinyl is such a bunch of distortion is so much an '80's', or '90's' or '00's kind of thinking. if you investigated today's top vinyl it is pretty linear and lacks little in accuracy, and is superior in completness to non-analog alternatives. i've been involved as a spectator watching tonearm devolpement take place in my room over the last 3+ years and it turns out that vinyl as a format is not much distorted, but the tonearm itself had a long way to go to eliminate enough distortion to realize that. and it's likely not done being optimized. i know my idea of what the reference had been for vinyl playback has been blown away multiple times recently.

which is not to say that 'every pretty face' of a turntable/arm/cartridge is able to accomplish this......

but we do all like pretty things.....

 

[Steve williams]

FWIW, Marty has a Goldmund TT, so he is far from naive regarding vinyl

Also, I have been involved in this hobby for 50 years and have heard many systems but I can say in all honesty that Marty's system is without question the finest I have ever heard

 

[Steve williams]

Funny. I use a linear arm (Airline) and am thinking of getting a 'conventional arm' (4Point) to add to my table. I agree with the rockit-man. Properly designed, executed and set-up, the performance can be just astounding.

so Bill are you suggesting that there is no distortion just as Mike suggests

 

[Mike Lavigne]

FWIW, Marty has a Goldmund TT, so he is far from naive regarding vinyl

Also, I have been involved in this hobby for 50 years and have heard many systems but I can say in all honesty that Marty's system is without question the finest I have ever heard

i'm not questioning Marty's system or that he is familiar with vinyl; i know your viewpoint toward his system and him. but he is dismissing expensive turntables as hopelessly distorted. that's a strong statement and wrong regardless of your high esteem for him. a 15 year old Goldmund turntable is not state of the art vinyl.

as far as linear tracking arms verses pivoted arms; been there, done that.....the best pivoted arms are better (less distorted) in my experience. in the future that could change.....but that is where things are at the present time.

 

[Mike Lavigne]

so Bill are you suggesting that there is no distortion just as Mike suggests

i did not suggest no distortion, what i said was;

if you investigated today's top vinyl it is pretty linear and lacks little in accuracy, and is superior in completness to non-analog alternatives.

 

[Steve williams]

I'm not disagreeing with you but for information only Mike are you saying your TT, vinyl is free of distortion or far less than what there used to be. Not trying to be argumentative, just trying to learn

And yes for the record, I have never heard a system anywhere that equals Marty's. He isn't a novice and although his TT is old he knows the science better than any lay person I have ever met

 

[Mike Lavigne]

I'm not disagreeing with you but for information only Mike are you saying your TT, vinyl is free of distortion or far less than what there used to be. Not trying to be argumentative, just trying to learn

And yes for the record, I have never heard a system anywhere that equals Marty's. He isn't a novice and although his TT is old he knows the science better than any lay person I have ever met

again; i'm not questioning Marty's wisdom or technical knowledge. but if he comes to an 'eye candy' thread in the turntable forum and throws around generalities without doing his homework on current state of the art vinyl playback gear then he will be called out on it. no big deal, and certainly nothing personal. he has been to my room and he is exactly who you say he is, a super sharp guy who knows his stuff.

maybe Marty can tell us about how extensively he has investigated recent vinyl gear advances. i could be very wrong.

as far my tt and distortion, yes, it has markedly less distortion than ever before. i have my tape decks and PD digital to compare it to daily.

 

[Steve williams]

i could be very wrong.

first and foremost Marty is a scientist and researcher who always does due diligence, so to some extent, perhaps you are

 

[Bill Hart]

so Bill are you suggesting that there is no distortion just as Mike suggests

Nope. In fact, I started another thread to talk about the effect of the Stillpoints LP Isolator, and how -while it may be reducing some resonance on my TT- it makes the sound less loud and propulsive, leaving me to ponder if the factory clamp is giving me a distortion that sounds like more bass and dynamics.
My car analogy was also to this point- the old car is technically not as good, less grip, less capable in every measurable respect, compared to a modern sports car, but the latter is less 'involving' as an experience sitting in the 'driver's seat.'
As to adding an arm, to have a linear and a 'conventional' arm, i want to experience the difference in sound of different arms and different cartridges; it may also give me the opportunity to install a mono cartridge. And, the pump on the Airline is a PITA, as I'm sure you've heard me complain about already. Finally, just to make sure I answered your question, I'm sure there are distortions caused by a linear arm as well. That discussion has been on at least one thread here - the notion that the energy from the cartridge has to travel somewhere. I'm not convinced that any one design is 'superior' insofar as arms go.
I also think a system, overall, may be 'tuned' to work better with one source than another. If Marty is using a top flight turntable set-up and top-flight digital, I wonder how he compares the relative merits of both sources using the same program material.
Did I miss anything?

 

[Mike Lavigne]

first and foremost Marty is a scientist and researcher who always does due diligence, so to some extent, perhaps you are

Steve, my comments are about a comment Marty made, not about Marty. i simply disagreed with the characterization he made...

Why do people insist on paying ludicrous amounts of money for a device that knowingly distorts the sound from the material being transduced.

he did not qualify it in any way, or suggest that there may be vinyl gear he has not heard that might not be like his characterization. i thought it was appropriate to respond.

i'm an observer and listener. i'm around people we could characterize as technically knowledgable, but that is not and never will be me.

 

[Steve williams]

Nothing

Of all the times I've been to his house, digital is what he plays, using TOL Meitner gear. Has a huge vinyl collection but rarely used nowadays

 

[Bill Hart]

Nothing

Of all the times I've been to his house, digital is what he plays, using TOL Meitner gear. Has a huge vinyl collection but rarely used nowadays

OK, I'm ready to buy Marty's vinyl, and if he is in Texas, it makes it even easier.

 

[Mike Lavigne]

OK, I'm ready to buy Marty's vinyl, and if he is in Texas, it makes it even easier.

 

[mep]

Mike-What was Marty's reaction to hearing vinyl at your house? Marty?

 

[flez007]

OK, I'm ready to buy Marty's vinyl, and if he is in Texas, it makes it even easier.

you stole what I was just going to post (but not in Texas)

 

[Bill Hart]

you stole what I was just going to post (but not in Texas)

Flex- i am a sharing person- I'll split it with ya. Of course, we need one other party to the bargain.

 

[Mike Lavigne]

Mike-What was Marty's reaction to hearing vinyl at your house? Marty?

that was a long time ago, maybe 6-7 years at least. looking back on things in retrospect, my system relatively sucked then. the Rockport was likely not bad but vinyl has moved forward from that time in my system. i have no idea what Marty's take was then. he was a gentleman and we had a fun session.