Ethernet cables to and from your switch?

[Republicoftexas69]

I’m going to read this when I can give it real focus. I expect it to raise as many questions as it answers! These include whether this grain is in any sense directional; if so, whether and how an audio cable manufacturer knows in which direction the grain runs and whether a cable usually sounds better if oriented with of against the grain; and whether the grain changes in audio use (including whether directionality does or can change in use). Will report back.

Waiting with bated breath. Are you an EE, Metallurgist, Physicist?

 

[NigelB]

A helpful paper in exploring the relationship between annealing temperature, grain size and conductivity.
The only directionality discussed in this paper is along the drawn copper wire vs across it. There is no suggestion, let alone no conclusion, that conductivity is better in one direction than the other. There is also no suggestion that any process other than annealing changes the grain size/structure, so cable burn-in in audio use is not a thing.

The lack of evidence or even discussion here of any directionality in the sense we use it (cable orientation) rather than along/across the drawing direction suggests that a cable manufacturer does not need to know in which direction the conductors were drawn as it makes no difference to conductivity.

An audio cable manufacturer might in theory be interested in the temperature at which the conductors were annealed so they know they have the smallest possible grain size, but in practice all they really need to know is the resulting conductivity of the conductor… and they can measure this.

An interesting read then and thanks to @MarkusBarkus for sharing it, but not one which throws any light on the subject of audio cable directionality.

 

[NigelB]

Waiting with bated breath. Are you an EE, Metallurgist, Physicist?

No. Are you?

The paper is well-written and comprehensible to most, I’d wager. I don’t think @MarkusBarkus shared it only for the metallurgists in the room!

 

[MarkusBarkus]

...there are other papers out there that focus on grain boundaries and their orientation axis with relation to resistivity in copper. Most of it seems to be work done with foils/sheets and their application on PCBs and nano-circuitry. Makes sense: that's where the money is.

My interpretation is if there are differences in resistivity caused by boundary/inclusion presence and orientation, one could perhaps allow for speculation that this grain (created by the various dies) *might* have a directionality that affects the sound due to perturbations and deviations in electron/particle "flow."

The papers I have seen involve X-ray crystallography, scanning electron microscopes and other tools I'm guessing audio cable manufacturers do not possess for measuring outcomes. I may drop a note to Fisk and Phelps-Dodge to see if they can point to any papers on the topic.

 

[NigelB]

...there are other papers out there that focus on grain boundaries and their orientation axis with relation to resistivity in copper. Most of it seems to be work done with foils/sheets and their application on PCBs and nano-circuitry. Makes sense: that's where the money is.

I'd be seriously interested in any scientific papers relating to directionality in the way we audiophiles use the term - not draw direction vs 90 degress to that (across the grain as it were) but whether flipping a sheet or wire through 180 degrees can make a difference to conductivity.

My interpretation is if there are differences in resistivity caused by boundary/inclusion presence and orientation, one could perhaps allow for speculation that this grain (created by the various dies) *might* have a directionality that affects the sound due to perturbations and deviations in electron/particle "flow."

As above, the paper you kindly referenced did talk about directionality but not in the way we use it.

The papers I have seen involve X-ray crystallography, scanning electron microscopes and other tools I'm guessing audio cable manufacturers do not possess for measuring outcomes. I may drop a note to Fisk and Phelps-Dodge to see if they can point to any papers on the topic.

That would be awesome.

 

[Antonio66]

So you do not own it, just tire kickin?

I'm not a tyre kicker.

Funny installed the Melco C100 on my sons Inuous Statement and could hear the difference in directionality. He was shocked. What say you he is an EE to boot, he like you was a doubter. Not sure what to make of it? Not sure why this makes some angry.

I'll guess you did not understand my post, or your point is?

You should give this a read

...I have seen a few articles around this topic. Unfortunately, I cannot find the image with various microscopic sections under various "pull speeds," temp, etc. I don't have a dog in this fight (she's on the chair at the moment).

"The effect of grain boundaries on the strength and electrical conductivity of annealed copper wires was studied. After annealing at 100 °C for 30 min, the copper wires retained a fiber-like structure. The increase in electrical conductivity is believed to stem from the decrease of crystallographic defects introduced by drawing. Recrystallization occurred when the annealing temperature reached 150 °C. The formation of small recrystallized grains led to the introduction of additional grain boundaries perpendicular to the drawing direction, resulting in a slight decrease in electrical conductivity."

Journal of Materials Research and Technology​

Volume 26, September–October 2023, Pages 1459-1468

https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S2238785423018239

I don't personally think it's a stretch that grain directionality makes a difference in sound, but it would likely be a part of a "system" containing many variables, and may be difficult to measure, other than with ears and one's brain. Not everyone hears everything.

Again, did you not understand my post, why would I need to read this?


You continually keep quoting my posts with no positivity and I can see no reason for it, hope you're not falling in love with me and want to keep my attention.

 

[treitz3]

Hello and good evening to you, gentlemen. The discourse that was presented was beneath this forum. Some posts were removed. Please try again to maintain the cordial atmosphere and friendly conversation. This is, after all, just a hobby...

Tom

 

[Republicoftexas69]

...there are other papers out there that focus on grain boundaries and their orientation axis with relation to resistivity in copper. Most of it seems to be work done with foils/sheets and their application on PCBs and nano-circuitry. Makes sense: that's where the money is.

My interpretation is if there are differences in resistivity caused by boundary/inclusion presence and orientation, one could perhaps allow for speculation that this grain (created by the various dies) *might* have a directionality that affects the sound due to perturbations and deviations in electron/particle "flow."

The papers I have seen involve X-ray crystallography, scanning electron microscopes and other tools I'm guessing audio cable manufacturers do not possess for measuring outcomes. I may drop a note to Fisk and Phelps-Dodge to see if they can point to any papers on the topic.

Completely agree as the current flow is going chose the path of least resistance, this would be in the direction of the draw or grain.

 

[Kingrex]

...there are other papers out there that focus on grain boundaries and their orientation axis with relation to resistivity in copper. Most of it seems to be work done with foils/sheets and their application on PCBs and nano-circuitry. Makes sense: that's where the money is.

My interpretation is if there are differences in resistivity caused by boundary/inclusion presence and orientation, one could perhaps allow for speculation that this grain (created by the various dies) *might* have a directionality that affects the sound due to perturbations and deviations in electron/particle "flow."

The papers I have seen involve X-ray crystallography, scanning electron microscopes and other tools I'm guessing audio cable manufacturers do not possess for measuring outcomes. I may drop a note to Fisk and Phelps-Dodge to see if they can point to any papers on the topic.

I don't think it needs that powerfull a microscope to see. Its also about getting a good polish on the surface and a acid bath to expose the crystal structure. Its probably a $40k scope. You can also just pay the plant making your wire to tag the ends to know the draw direction. It does not change through the process
You can also just listen to it. I have a client that is into arhiving tape to digital. He has captured on a digital file the sound of his equipment plugged into a wire laid one direction, then flipped the opposit direction. Sure enough it changed.

I know enough cable manufacturer that say they grain orient to believe they are doing as such in some way. How they decide to do it is up to them. I know 4 ways you can do it.

 

[NigelB]

Completely agree as the current flow is going chose the path of least resistance, this would be in the direction of the draw or grain.

Which is along the conductor not across it... which is handy!

You seem to be suggesting more than this, that there is a directionality along the conductor, such that one way is better (easier conductivity?) and the other worse. That's not covered in the paper linked to above.

Interesting feedback from the cable manufacturers.

 

[Kingrex]

There are normally about 1700 grain per foot in standard tough pitch 99.95% pure wire. About 30 to 70 grains per foot in Ono cast. Every time you bend the wire you ake more grains.

Anyhow, is it really about the energy traveling along the wire with the grain, or is it about the energy moving up and out of the wire as the electo magnetic field rises and falls. I am asking. Does that wven have a leading and trailing edge. Or is it truely from the center. I thought a sine wave is just that. A wave in a direction. That wave moves forward. But it also moves up and down. The electro/magnet field also rises and falls and has to pass through those crystals. Forward to back as well as up and down.