Entreq Tellus grounding

[mauidan]

No, not at all.
I was commenting on Microstrip's suggestion on the level of sensitivity that would be required for the measurements that had been proposed.
So far as I am aware that has not been challenged on this forum.
I have no problem if others wish to undertake the measurements with the requisite equipment but whether that would or would not have any utility is far from clear given all the other relevant factors that members have identified.
I like other satisfied users with a range of different systems are content to rely upon our ears. If other members wish to undertake voltage measurements rather than to rely upon their ears I have no problems with them so doing.
I will read their conclusions with interest if and when they actually do it as opposed asking others to do it for them.

Who said anything about taking voltage measurements?

 

[Barry2013]

Who said anything about taking voltage measurements?

My mistake.
But is it resistance or impedance or both ?

 

[dmnc02]

My mistake.
But is it resistance or impedance or both ?

Or something else altogether?

 

[mauidan]

My mistake.
But is it resistance or impedance or both ?

Electrical impedance is the measure of the opposition that a circuit presents to a current when a voltage is applied.

In quantitative terms, it is the complex ratio of the voltage to the current in an alternating current (AC) circuit. Impedance extends the concept of resistance to AC circuits, and possesses both magnitude and phase, unlike resistance, which has only magnitude. When a circuit is driven with direct current (DC), there is no distinction between impedance and resistance; the latter can be thought of as impedance with zero phase angle.

 

[Speedskater]

Sometime ago, in a thread about speaker cables, I posted a method to measure low resistances using just a current source or a stable voltage source and a good power resistor. But the real question is that we are dealing with ground cables now and IMHO here the important parameter is impedance versus frequency, at frequencies up 2 GHz, looking for possible resonances.

Yes, our expert Ralph Morrison writes about the impedance of different conductors. Better than round wire is flat braided straps. A step higher is flat thin copper strips ( 3 to 6 inches wide and a small fraction of an inch thick. He also suggest running your interconnect cables form location to location resting on these copper strips which are joined to each chassis with a copper braid. This is the exact oppisite of what some audiophiles do with cable supports.

While 2 GHz interference is a problem, none of these wires or straps will help with that. The solution is in shielding and/or filtering.

An example of copper grounding straps.
http://www.gacopper.com/

 

[dmnc02]

Electrical impedance is the measure of the opposition that a circuit presents to a current when a voltage is applied.

In quantitative terms, it is the complex ratio of the voltage to the current in an alternating current (AC) circuit. Impedance extends the concept of resistance to AC circuits, and possesses both magnitude and phase, unlike resistance, which has only magnitude. When a circuit is driven with direct current (DC), there is no distinction between impedance and resistance; the latter can be thought of as impedance with zero phase angle.

That's what Wikipedia says. How does this apply to your ground rod (which is what you wanted to measure)?

 

[Speedskater]

Measuring the resistance or low frequency impedance of a stake in the dirt (ground rod) is not inexpensive or easy. The measurement sometimes required by electrical code or building code requires a test instrument that is almost $3000 and maybe 1/2 hour time. Even after making this measurement we know that the value will change with time and weather conditions. But luckily this connection to Mother Earth is all about safety and from an audio system point of view has nothing to with power quality.

 

[microstrip]

Yes, our expert Ralph Morrison writes about the impedance of different conductors. Better than round wire is flat braided straps. A step higher is flat thin copper strips ( 3 to 6 inches wide and a small fraction of an inch thick. He also suggest running your interconnect cables form location to location resting on these copper strips which are joined to each chassis with a copper braid. This is the exact oppisite of what some audiophiles do with cable supports.

While 2 GHz interference is a problem, none of these wires or straps will help with that. The solution is in shielding and/or filtering.

An example of copper grounding straps.
http://www.gacopper.com/

Remember most designers of equipment do not follow Ralph Morrison indications about grounding and shielding systems in their equipment and relative positions of equipment in rooms is mainly decided by domestic requirements - not laboratory systems. I believe that Entreq optimizes their devices based on empirical data obtained with real experience on listening tests. I am no way pretending to comment on their technical solutions, I just want to show a way to understand the existing problems.

The interference is not just 2 GHz - it is at less up to 2 GHz. When I was working in the laboratory we used all the known recipes (many meters of tinned braided straps, as you referred, in an optimized layout) , and after that we even moved cables and equipment looking for a minimum at the interference in the scope screen. The experiments were carried at that position!

BTW, how would you shield the whole audio system?

 

[Speedskater]

I have had the same experiences in development laboratories and at broadcast transmitter sites. So when audiophiles insert a new component, they don't realize just how many uncontrolled variables are changing at the same time. Heck even changing the length or dress (placement) of the same model number cable can change things.

BTW, how would you shield the whole audio system?

As in my post #839, these experts have written or a 1000 pages on the subject.

Keith Armstrong
Jim Brown
Henry W. Ott
Bill Whitlock

But the best interference person is Jim Brown.
http://www.audiosystemsgroup.com/publish.htm
http://www.audiosystemsgroup.com/AES-RFI-SF08.pdf
http://www.audiosystemsgroup.com/RFI-Ham.pdf

But the quick answer is just follow Neil Muncy .
Do a search for his paper (the link keeps moving)

Noise Susceptibility in Analog and Digital Signal Processing Systems
NElL A. MUNCY

Journal of the.Audio Engineering Society.
Vol.43,No.6,1995June

A demonstrable cause-and-effect relationship between a popular and widely employed
equipment design practice and electrical noise problems in audio systems of all kinds is
examined. A means of identifying equipment that may exhibit noise problems due to this
design practice is outlined. The relationship between the physical construction of shielded
twisted-pair cable and induced noise in a signal circuit due to cable shield current is explored.
Established "rules" for equipment installation are reexamined. It is shown that noise problems
due to this design practice could be eliminated at the manufacturing level at almost negligible
net cost.

 

[spiritofmusic]

One fascinating effect of grounding is that the removal of noise is revealing the purity of the signal, and the timing of music is enhanced. Entreq'ed music seems simultaneously sped up i.e. the leading edge of notes/dynamic attack/PRaT, are all enhanced; and music simultaneously slowed down i.e. the full envelope of each note is expanded so sustain and harmonics are fully developed and fleshed out. The aggregate effect of course is no actual change to physical timing, but unlike some SS components that seem to add to the right kind of edge-of-your-seat excitement, or tubed components that cause you to relax back in your chair w/the right kind of lushness of presentation, the effects of Entreq seem to pull off both tricks at the same time.
This word has been mentioned before, i.e. COHERENCY, and I feel this is the best term to describe the effects I've just mentioned. You really feel you're one step closer to the holistic aspect of the music, the underlying message/feelings of the musicians being really revealed.
Apologies for overdosing on hyperbole, but Entreq really is a fundamental upgrade I can't do w/out anymore.

 

[spiritofmusic]

C'mon Keith. Your involved in a luxury consumer good market (Cessaro Liszts at £80k, Grand Prix Monaco tt £25k), and you shake your head at £19k. It's not chump change, but the effects that: <<<a dedicated consumer unit w/Oyaide radial main, an 8kVA Westwick balanced transformer w/150lb tapped Copper coil, 8 socket Burmester 948 power conditioner, Entreq grounding box and 6 Apollo ground leads (bill £13k at present, £19k may be my final bill w/more Entreq boxes and ground leads)>>> have proved to be invaluable.
And tbh if you think I should have spent the money more wisely instead on, say, a pair of your spkrs, maybe you should have offered me a home trial when I requested one, instead of ignoring my request. Your loss, you know I like Cessaro.
So a current expenditure of £13k I really don't believe is extortionate, is proportionate w/the value/quality of my system, and has enhanced things in ways no similar £13k component could have, like amps or spkrs.
This is a forum that believes in free speech, but as the originator of this thread I really object to your snipings from the sidelines, esp since every time I respond to your criticisms incl my volunteering to do a blinded trial of Entreq at your convenience and under your rules, you don't so much refuse, you show me the total disrespect of not even responding to me.

 

[spiritofmusic]

Gosh Keith, you really like leaving your little breadcrumb trail for me to pick up on. I'm like the dutiful one who comes back for more. No more. Haven't you got some SR stuff to get off your chest? Get your kicks w/someone else. Not me anymore.

 

[allvinyl]

it looks like it's smaller and has less capacity of the Silver Tellus. Is the Olympus less money ?

Silver Tellus is $2,699 and Olympos is $2,429.

John

 

[spiritofmusic]

I'm not privy to any tech info, but it seems Olympos is NOT just a half-size S. Tellus w/or w/out Atlantis Tellus add-on box. It's using the same basic ideas, but producing a v.concentrated grounding solution for one component (my trial is going to be for my dual mono line stage, and it's been designed primarily to ground preamps), and as such is a different proposition. Whether it performs better in any one system instead of adding an Atlantis Tellus, or another S. Tellus box, only a trial will tell.
I'm going to go for a 3-way a-b-c, line stage Apollos to Olympos/all other Apollos to current S. Tellus (4 pegs sharing 6-7 Apollos), or same but 2 S. Tellus' (8 pegs sharing 6-7 Apollos, keeping analog and digital to separate boxes, SET Apollos to separate boxes, Zu sub amp Apollos to separate boxes). Or just 2 S. Tellus'/no Olympos.

 

[Argonaut]

Good Day Folks.

I have only recently become aware of the Entreq range of products, and, having journeyed through this Opus of a thread, I would be most grateful for a little sage advice as to optimising a 'starter' kit that would best suit my current system.

I have gleaned thus far, that , in the first instance, paying attention to the Pre Amplifier is the way to go, and to that end I have in mind a single Silver Telus, connected to an ARC Ref5se, via a pair of Atlantis RCA's. However connecting to the signal line of the CDP and Amplifier would appear to be not quite as straight forward as neither piece of equipment sports any additional Line level connection , either RCA or XLR.
Would I be correct in assuming that the only way to connect them with the Telus would be via a grounding point ?

Jasper.

 

[microstrip]

I have had the same experiences in development laboratories and at broadcast transmitter sites. So when audiophiles insert a new component, they don't realize just how many uncontrolled variables are changing at the same time. Heck even changing the length or dress (placement) of the same model number cable can change things.

BTW, how would you shield the whole audio system?

As in my post #839, these experts have written or a 1000 pages on the subject.

Keith Armstrong
Jim Brown
Henry W. Ott
Bill Whitlock

But the best interference person is Jim Brown.
http://www.audiosystemsgroup.com/publish.htm
http://www.audiosystemsgroup.com/AES-RFI-SF08.pdf
http://www.audiosystemsgroup.com/RFI-Ham.pdf

But the quick answer is just follow Neil Muncy .
Do a search for his paper (the link keeps moving)

Noise Susceptibility in Analog and Digital Signal Processing Systems
NElL A. MUNCY

Journal of the.Audio Engineering Society.
Vol.43,No.6,1995June

A demonstrable cause-and-effect relationship between a popular and widely employed
equipment design practice and electrical noise problems in audio systems of all kinds is
examined. A means of identifying equipment that may exhibit noise problems due to this
design practice is outlined. The relationship between the physical construction of shielded
twisted-pair cable and induced noise in a signal circuit due to cable shield current is explored.
Established "rules" for equipment installation are reexamined. It is shown that noise problems
due to this design practice could be eliminated at the manufacturing level at almost negligible
net cost.

Unfortunately I do not have access to AES papers - it why I asked you the question expecting a brief summary. However, even without reading, I risk that some of the recipes given by these authors will compromise the sound target of many high end designers. The main aim of these papers is studio sound, not audiophile domestic sound. And, just repeating Morrison, some recipes almost 20 years old are not enough, specially considering the much higher extreme quality we can get now from stereo systems. But we can always imagine what would be the high end world if all designers followed these good practices. IMHO the main problem is that implementing just a few in random choice can result in a poorer global system. And even the big experts disagree a lot in their opinions on these matters - perhaps not as much as in small listening room acoustics. Anyway thanks for pointing to me someone (Jim Brown) who writes:

The Biggest Myths
Myth: “I need a better ground”
Fact: A connection to earth will almost never reduce noise or RFI, and it will often make it worse, because the “ground wire” can act as an antenna.
Fact: A connection to earth is very important for lightning protection.

 

[Speedskater]

A reprint of the:
Journal of the.Audio Engineering Society.
Vol.43,No.6,1995June
Is available with 7 excellent articles including the Neil Muncy (RIP) paper. The cost is $15 USD including mailing and should be in every audio engineering library. (don't know the international cost)

SHIELDS AND GROUNDS: SAFETY, POWER MAINS, STUDIO, CABLE AND EQUIPMENT
The June 1995 issue of the Journal was a definitive and comprehensive collection of information on this important topic. The seven papers by Neil Muncy and other experts in the field have been reprinted into a convenient guide for designers and practitioners.

http://www.aes.org/publications/specialpubs/journal_issues.cfm

*********************************************************
And, just repeating Morrison, some recipes almost 20 years old are not enough, specially considering the much higher extreme quality we can get now from stereo systems.

Why would you think that? Good Engineering Practice is always good engineering practice. More than a few of the high end audiophile practice don't come close to following 'Good Engineering Practice's'.

Now that balanced analog interconnects (although hi-fi products often do them incorrectly) and digital interconnects are becoming popular the magnitude of power system problems as been reduced.

 

[Speedskater]

The NeiL Muncy (RIP) paper is available on the internet, just do a search for:

'Noise Susceptibility in Analog and Digital Signal Processing Systems'

 

[Mike Lavigne]

i just love it when threads descend into 'white paper/measurement' hell.

what fun!

 

[Speedskater]

Some interesting Henry W. Ott papers:

Ground- A Path For Current Flow
http://www.hottconsultants.com/pdf_files/ground.pdf


[SIZE=+1]Balanced vs. Unbalanced Audio System Interconnections
[/SIZE][SIZE=+1]http://www.hottconsultants.com/pdf_files/Audio%20Interconnections.pdf[/SIZE][SIZE=+1][/SIZE][SIZE=+1]
[/SIZE][SIZE=+1]
[/SIZE][SIZE=+1]His 875 page book:[/SIZE][SIZE=+1]
[/SIZE][SIZE=+1]It's not all that difficult to read.[/SIZE][SIZE=+1]
[/SIZE][SIZE=+1]
Electromagnetic Compatibility Engineering

http://www.hottconsultants.com/book.html
[/SIZE][SIZE=+1]
[/SIZE]