Does Beethoven need to be "cancelled"?

morricab

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Classical in concert halls sounds good.

In London the tickets are much cheaper than the US. Still, to go to concerts you need to have student id, be a senior citizen, or have much better income than the average. Especially in relation to movies, concert tickets are too expensive so those not into classical and concerts already won't go.

In Zurich, they have "kinderkonzert" about once a month that we take my daughter to. They are performed by members of the Zurich Tonhalle Orchestra, which is a very good orchestra, in the Tonhalle (or now in the Tonhalle Maag during refurbishment of Tonhalle). The price is very reasonable and the performance is on par with "adult" concerts. We recently saw "Peter and the Wolf"...fantastic!
 

morricab

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There is a new outrage machine that blows these odd opinion articles and makes them national news. It is the result of the 24 hour news cycle in the United States. They have to find something for us to be outraged about.


Agreed, and unlike this article Beethoven's music will still be relevant in another 200 years. As Nassim Taleb notes, things that have lasted tend to last because something in them allowed them to get this far. The longer something survives, the longer it is likely to survive...

The music of the greats will be with us long after most of the rest is not. That also is true for great music of the 20th century and great popular music and will be true of some 21st century music I would imagine. Only a small % makes it through the filter of time.
 

morricab

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"Normally I like Vox..."

:rolleyes:
 

microstrip

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(...) Interestingly, my Beethoven LP was a not very special Deutsche Grammophon which followed some other fairly standard, non audiophile LPs, and Al and I recognized and subsequently discussed what Jeff Day is getting at with his "listening window". These ordinary recordings are accessible and they can all sound natural and excellent and engaging. There is no need for another expensive audiophile remastering of what already exists. The music is already out there and ready to be played and shared with others.

Since long I told the same about Deutsche Grammophon recordings in CD format played through the dCS Vivaldi - they are surprisingly good, extremely musical. In fact it was one of the main factors that made me going dCS, the first time I noticed such characteristic was with a dCS Elgar/Purcell/Verdi system playing through conrad johnson electronics. dCS were deeply involved in ADCs and DACs for recording studios before they entered the consumer area.

Remastering a recording shows us a different perspective of the musical event, its appreciation is extremely subjective. For example, IMHO some Esoteric remasters for SACD sound really great.
 
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In Zurich, they have "kinderkonzert" about once a month that we take my daughter to. They are performed by members of the Zurich Tonhalle Orchestra, which is a very good orchestra, in the Tonhalle (or now in the Tonhalle Maag during refurbishment of Tonhalle). The price is very reasonable and the performance is on par with "adult" concerts. We recently saw "Peter and the Wolf"...fantastic!
That's the spirit! How does your daughter find the kinderkonzerte?
 

sharik

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Forcing classical music on young kids and teenagers, especially when they feel like they want to connect with contemporary music, is not an ideal solution. Being forced to engage with classical music since the early childhood years, I developed a strong reluctance towards classical music,
that has to do with overall decline in education quality, where kids have been allowed to look away from the teacher, exacerbated with imposition of the so called 'mass culture' that was aimed at the inexperienced and weak (i.e. aforementioned teenagers) in order to create a youth oriented industry so that keep the average intellectual level of peoples as low as possible... behold the results: instead of acquiring what's best history of mankind has on offer, the population goes with the worst has ever been produced.
 

the sound of Tao

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Tutt tutting the younger generation for not liking exactly what an older generation might like... well that’s never happened before :rolleyes: ;)... but it is certainly a great way for us to become old and irrelevant without even trying. We are doomed if this is the level of understanding that we offer the young or this is the best that we can be as mentors. If they look away from their teachers perhaps it could be that their teachers may not actually be relevant.

Every generation expresses itself and it’s culture in it’s own way. It’s not wrong... it’s about them learning to become who they are or who they need to become.

Popular culture has it’s own value and just because we come from a different time and don’t relate doesn’t make another generation’s culture somehow valueless.

It happens with every gen... perhaps it’s just something that we might not have sufficient perspective to understand. But to look down upon another generation is just old school hubris.

They will have their own journeys and they will be very different journeys to ours. Likely they’ll travel much harder paths than most of us have or perhaps can even imagine.

If they don’t trust our choices or the advice that we give them perhaps it’s because we won’t have proven to be the greatest of role models ourselves.
 
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zerostargeneral

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Dear Sirs,

I personally believe the thin end of the wedge started at least five generations ago. I am guilty of my part in decrying the oldies amongst my peers however those same oldies taught me how to learn and cope.

Kindest regards,G.
 
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the sound of Tao

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G I have complete faith in great music to be utterly timeless and valid. We need to make it more available and not exclusive. The test of time defrays everything ephemeral. Meaning survives. But we need to respect the process of discovery. Mentors prove themselves worthy not because they are old but more because they are wise. Respect between the ages is what opens the connections of understanding and the interchange. The wonder of music lives on always within us and then beyond even without us.
 
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Tutt tutting the younger generation for not liking exactly what an older generation might like... well that’s never happened before :rolleyes: ;)... but it is certainly a great way for us to become old and irrelevant without even trying. We are doomed if this is the level of understanding that we offer the young or this is the best that we can be as mentors. If they look away from their teachers perhaps it could be that their teachers may not actually be relevant.

Every generation expresses itself and it’s culture in it’s own way. It’s not wrong... it’s about them learning to become who they are or who they need to become.

Popular culture has it’s own value and just because we come from a different time and don’t relate doesn’t make another generation’s culture somehow valueless.

It happens with every gen... perhaps it’s just something that we might not have sufficient perspective to understand. But to look down upon another generation is just old school hubris.

They will have their own journeys and they will be very different journeys to ours. Likely they’ll travel much harder paths than most of us have or perhaps can even imagine.

If they don’t trust our choices or the advice that we give them perhaps it’s because we won’t have proven to be the greatest of role models ourselves.
This is a very accurate statement. I sense great wisdom behind these words.
 

Al M.

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that has to do with overall decline in education quality, where kids have been allowed to look away from the teacher, exacerbated with imposition of the so called 'mass culture' that was aimed at the inexperienced and weak (i.e. aforementioned teenagers) in order to create a youth oriented industry so that keep the average intellectual level of peoples as low as possible... behold the results: instead of acquiring what's best history of mankind has on offer, the population goes with the worst has ever been produced.

There is no "overall decline of our education quality" specific to our times. All of this could have been said 50 years ago. Nothing new to our times.
 

Al M.

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The cancel culture on which this OP is based, seems new to our times. Or am I mistaken?

No it's not new. As you say:

Books were burned and history removed from the classrooms, so perhaps you are right that it is not new.

***

But kids are graduating not knowing how to read or write well. Reason and logic are rarely taught anymore. I suppose my measure of quality is no longer relevant. Kids are learning under a new set of values, so who am I to judge?

Not sure about that. Scientific talent is still there, as we have no problem hiring young people with education and talent in our biotech company.

Young musicians play better than ever. When my father and I visited a concert of student pianists at the University of Graz, Austria, the professor said that what students played 50 years ago as their final exam, they now have to be able to play as entrance exam.
 
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Al M.

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We had been discussing general education levels and I was referring to the US.

Our biotech company which I spoke of is in the US, and as you know from concerts at the New England Conservatory in Boston, young musicians there are extremely good as well.


You are citing examples of top kids with real skills. I fear this discussion is getting a bit off topic and may be running afoul of the TOS if not careful.

Probably. I can't get into details of the horrific cancel culture in past times in the US either, for reasons of ban of politics.
 

sharik

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it is certainly a great way for us to become old and irrelevant without even trying. We are doomed if this is the level of understanding that we offer the young or this is the best that we can be as mentors. If they look away from their teachers perhaps it could be that their teachers may not actually be relevant.

the way things are going, it is the young are more likely to become 'irrelevant' because the age that championed the idea of 'generations' and youth orientation is going. 20th century ideologies that saw peoples as 'masses' to manipulate them and use for certain purpose are giving way to a direct control that looks more like Neofeudalist one, rather than liberal's, even though pretending to be the same.

Every generation expresses itself and it’s culture in it’s own way. It’s not wrong... it’s about them learning to become who they are or who they need to become. Popular culture has it’s own value and just because we come from a different time and don’t relate doesn’t make another generation’s culture somehow valueless.

there's a misconception that one has to belong to an older generation to reject 'mass culture' as if we are still in the 1960s whilst there was a generations gap, which is no more, since it is half a century on from then... so the talk is not of generations, any longer, but of what have we got now and the lessons learned: the achievements of mankind and the ways of keeping the transcendent technologies attained vital.

It happens with every gen... perhaps it’s just something that we might not have sufficient perspective to understand. But to look down upon another generation is just old school hubris. They will have their own journeys and they will be very different journeys to ours. Likely they’ll travel much harder paths than most of us have or perhaps can even imagine.

very likely, to say the least... and obviously there are certain plans existing to see to this... as for 'hubris' - well, and why not?.. i for one have gone all the way, from being into mass culture stuff, to appreciate the masterpieces of classical music and fine art, which took me some effort and, moreover, confrontation against the realities of today, needs be said, so i have no sympathy for those who comply with these just because of there reluctance to do any research.
 
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Teenage rebellion is a crucial stage in human development, when a young adult is defining his/her identity outside of the tradition as capacity for the independent decision-making. Every individual goes through this stage differently, so it does not necessarily mean that by default every teenager becomes dispassionate about the classical music. If somebody with a significant life experience wishes to guide the inexperienced souls, by all means, it should be done. However, the guidance and supervision should be offered in a smart way, so that the teenagers would not get discouraged. In the ideal world, the love towards the classical music should not be forced on them, just because many people (myself included) believe classical music is not appreciated sufficiently. Best if it is their decision when they make friends with Bach, Chopin and Liszt and on what terms.
 

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