Do Modern DAC need a server

Kingrex

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I have a question. A friend is adamant any high end modern DAC should be immune to the source. That the spdif or usb in the DAC should be isolated, have dedicated power and reclocking, so the source can be a laptop or an Aurender whaever model, and you should not hear a difference????? Why then do people say they can hear a server compared to a laptop.

He is also adamant what is going on is the sorce file. He says that if the file was compressed or is not lossless that that is what we are hearing. I get that. Its easy to hear. But, If I were to burn a CD to WAV and play it through a laptop or through a server, would I hear a difference with a properly built modern DAC. If so, what is failing in the signal chain that a galvanic isolated DAC with built in clocks that are isolated from the source are not able to deal with or correct. Why is the DAC being influenced by the digital packet of data.
 

treitz3

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A good friend of mine came up with a phrase I have used all of my life that would fit perfect in this scenario...

"You can't make chicken soup out of chicken sh*t".

I don't care how good a DAC is, it can only do so much with what's it's fed.

Tom
 

facten

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The same question has essentially been hit upon in a couple of other recent threads.

I see that you are an owner of a Mojo Audio DAC. When I purchased a Mojo EVO DAC Ben asked me what transport I was using. I told him a Cambridge CXC and he said, if you want to hear what this DAC can really do you should consider a better transport. I didn't get into the why's and wherefores with him I just trusted in his knowledge in this arena. He didn't try to steer me to any particular transport, nor to a Mojo server. I went ahead an purchased a SimAudio 260DT , the resulting improvement in SQ was very apparent. I don't stream atm, but based upon reading many other posts relative to streaming the assessment seems to be the same. Ben is easy to speak to maybe give him a call for a technical response to your question.
 

Kingrex

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Can anyone point to a good thread where someone explains what the jitter really is. I thought I remembered it being something like the on and off are not correct because every time a chip changes the gate, if its at all retarded in the rise time, as in, not a perfect square wave, the timing of the on snd off gets skewed. Horrible recount of what I remember.
And I remember Xymox posting images of something like a spray.

I have always heard every change to my server. I have heard USB cable changes. But my DAC is about 4 or 5 years old now. Ancient in digital days. I don't know if technology is advancing in ways that are negating a server. Like a MSB Digital Director.
 

matthias

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I don't know if technology is advancing in ways that are negating a server. Like a MSB Digital Director.
The Director is like a "server" in relation to the DAC. It is perfect example that a DAC sounds better when you improve the component upstream to it. If a MSB DAC is immune to the source then there is no improvement by the Director.

Matt
 
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facten

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defride

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Wadax conted it’s not jitter so much these days, that problem is well understood. There’s a piece on Roy Gregory’s new site GY8 where in an interview they describe timing as the issue. There are all sorts of ways that the timing of the bits can get messed up before they hit the dac, the dac then reproduces the errors. That’s as I understood. I’m out at the mo or is find the link, it’s in the first piece of the Wadax Ref review
 

audiobomber

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The designer of my exaSound DAC told me that the source, whether computer or expensive server, doesn't matter. My experience says that is far from true. I've made highly significant improvements, with ethernet & USB cables, ethernet switches, and switch power supply upgrades.
 

Kingrex

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The designer of my exaSound DAC told me that the source, whether computer or expensive server, doesn't matter. My experience says that is far from true. I've made highly significant improvements, with ethernet & USB cables, ethernet switches, and switch power supply upgrades.
I feel this is exactly what I heard a few years back. It doesn't matter, so why can I hear it. Owe wait, you can't in a blind test. And around we go.
 

facten

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I feel this is exactly what I heard a few years back
And , as I noted previously, it is exactly the opposite of what your current DAC's designer has stated - it matters
 

Kingrex

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Kingrex

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And , as I noted previously, it is exactly the opposite of what your current DAC's designer has stated - it matters
Yes, Ben says it matters. I asked as technology can move very fast. I don't know how old school or new school Mojo Audio is. I'm pretty sure Mojo uses the latest and greatest JCat USB card and I know it has a dedicated power supply to the card. But what does that mean in todays world.

I.wonder if and when it may flip. That a DAC has a design that is immune to source.
 
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Bobvin

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Rex, I sure wish I could offer a technical answer, but I cannot. I was a bits are bits kind of guy for a long time, ripped my CDs to a hard drive and built a silent PC to serve them up. I built a few silent PCs, finally just bought what Roon said made a decent little Roon Rock, an Intel NUC.

Then I took the plunge and bought a Taiko Extreme, thinking if a server makes a difference I’d go all in. What a revelation! I will tell anyone an Extreme will make your DAC much better. I look forward to upgrading my DAC, but my Rossini (non-Apex) sounds better with every tweak the folks at Taiko keep serving up, both hardware wise (the USB card) and of all things, the software side. If a fancy server isn’t required, how can it be changes to the software on the server makes such a difference?

In my feeble attempts to make sense of it, I remember when software engineers took pride in writing elegant code. Memory was expensive so a developer would write a function, then rework it to minimize the memory called for. I ran Photoshop 2.0 on a Mac IIci with 5mb of memory. (Yep, 5, not 5 gigs.) then memory got cheap and code got sloppy, bulky, inefficient. I think the folks at Taiko are reworking code for a different type of efficiency—to utilize the least amount of processor and hardware calls, maybe considering how the data gets routed through the busses, etc. I, and I believe everyone who is playing with the alpha version XDMS software being developed by Taiko, is frequently astonished at the uptick in sound quality with new builds. Emile and his crew are doing amazing things, and I haven’t upgraded the DAC.

If you haven’t followed the Taiko thread (huge thread) there are certainly nuggets there as to why a server can make such a differenc.
 

Kingrex

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If you haven’t followed the Taiko thread (huge thread) there are certainly nuggets there as to why a server can make such a differenc.
I wish some.of these threads had a glossary. That would be a hell of a forum feature.
 
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matthias

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I wish some.of these threads had a glossary. That would be a hell of a forum feature.
Using Advanced Search is quite good. I found always what I looked for on the Taiko thread.

Matt
 
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Republicoftexas69

Well-Known Member
A good friend of mine came up with a phrase I have used all of my life that would fit perfect in this scenario...

"You can't make chicken soup out of chicken sh*t".

I don't care how good a DAC is, it can only do so much with what's it's fed.

Tom
I agree 100% Same for what is going into the server or streamer, need a clean feed. Everything in the chain matters!
 

wil

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As a Taiko Extreme Server owner, I believe what they have done and are working on is remarkable.

Over the weekend I heard Brent Butterworth, on his sometimes interesting Soundstage! podcast rail against the Extreme. His only point was really "why did they put such a massive amount of capacitance in a Server when all it needs to do is stream from the internet?" This is pretty much the stock attitude from those who dismiss uber-servers. But, he hasn't listened to it in a system and seems to know nothing about what Taiko is doing beyond the spec sheet.

And, btw, Brent also believes there is no difference in sound between different amplifiers. He says he has done many dozens of comparisons where he thought he could clearly hear a difference, but when he tested blind, he could not tell them apart.

I know clearly that some amps and pre-amps sound radically different, so I also have to wonder what's up with Brent.

On the other hand, I do like that he's challenging audiophile orthodoxy (like servers making a difference) but I think he and others should do their homework before jumping to conclusions on a product like what Taiko is producing. I would love to hear a conversation between him and Emile where Emile could explain why he uses all the capacitance among other things.

Finally, I do feel audiophiles would do well to use blind listening comparisons more often in their evaluations. There are quite a few products from cables to switches to acoustic "harmonizers" that I have compared with blind listening that produced zero audible change or improvement in my system. Expectation bias is a real thing which shouldn't be dismissed in my opinion/experience.
 

treitz3

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Wil said:
And, btw, Brent also believes there is no difference in sound between different amplifiers. He says he has done many dozens of comparisons where he thought he could clearly hear a difference, but when he tested blind, he could not tell them apart.

I know clearly that some amps and pre-amps sound radically different, so I also have to wonder what's up with Brent..

No doubt.

Tom
 

microstrip

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(...) Finally, I do feel audiophiles would do well to use blind listening comparisons more often in their evaluations. There are quite a few products from cables to switches to acoustic "harmonizers" that I have compared with blind listening that produced zero audible change or improvement in my system. Expectation bias is a real thing which shouldn't be dismissed in my opinion/experience.

An ingenuous but sometimes dangerous invitation, IMHO. Just being "blind" does not assure you a proper listening test.

The main quest is that proper listening tests need proper conditions and methods, that are time consuming and need knowledge for set up and analysis. Poorly carried tests will just send us to the objectivists trail if we do not have a strong mind. Surely expectation bias plays a great role in our hobby and must be delt with, and our decisions will always incorporate some bias.

As long as our time and resources are limited bias can be a good thing. At the long time bias will educate us - and then becomes a preference! o_O
 

Kingrex

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I wanted to start a thread on blind testing. Every job I personally oversee the client inevitably ask me my impressions of before an hour.

I have become more aware of a concept called auditory blindness. It's similar to visual blindness. More specifically the extremely limited focus one has. If you were in an intense conversation with someone intently focused on that person you would not notice a gorilla walking by in the background. My perception of audio blindness is somewhat similar. It is extremely difficult to walk into an unknown system and understand all that is going on in the audio spectrum. When you live with a system you have become well acquainted with its surrounding. You are more app to pick up on where the subtle changes are. If you are new to a system there is too much to absorb. You miss the subtle changes as your attention was never focused enough prior to catch the change after.

If Wil has had a chance to perform blind analysis in his own personal system, then he is far ahead of others. I wish I could get my wife to randomly move a cable for me. Even pull a plug at an unknown time for me. I feel the idea of blind testing in one's personal system has much more validity than one in a unknown strange environment being asked to analyze subtle changes.

I would love for somebody to move a USB cable between a server and laptop for me. In my own personal system. Then have me determined which I'm listening to. I get microstrips point. But we're talking tens of thousands of dollars versus maybe
 

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