Do media players have a sound?

[untangle]

Scott, dude, here's the problem:

...feeding my AlphaDAC/Spectral/Magico system

Your system is clearly not resolving enough to reveal the differences between digital players.

Tim

A true Bay Area system! LOL.

Bob

 

[mep]

I feel compelled to throw in my $.02 worth here. I built a computer specifically for the purpose of being a digital music server. It is a fairly nice computer and probably overbuilt for the purpose if such a thing is possible. I used an Intel MB, I-5 processor, 4 gigs of DDR-3 RAM, and a 1 TB hard drive. The operating system is XP Pro because that was recommended by Reference Recordings. I’m using an EMU 0404 USB DAC. Based on the recommendation of Reference Recordings, I downloaded Media Monkey as my software interface.

I never liked the sound of any music I played back through the server. Being an analog/tube kind of guy, I just sort of chalked it up to me not liking digital and here was another reason why. But, the more I thought about it, the more it bothered me because I knew that something had to be wrong. It simply shouldn’t sound as bad as it did. I thought maybe my DAC was garbage even though others who heard it said it sounded very good (even if the praise carried the caveat “for the money”).

I posted a question about software on this forum and people mentioned that they liked Foobar and who shot JR. I downloaded Foobar and thought I would give it a try. Unlike some others who have expectation biases, I had none. I didn’t know if it was going to sound exactly the same, better, or worse than Foobar. Again, I had no expectations. There is no doubt on my server and played through my stereo system, Foobar sounds way better to this set of ears than Media Monkey. Why that should be so, I have no idea as I don’t pretend to understand computer software and how it interacts with digital music files. There is something going on here and I will leave it to the experts to explain why different software can impact the sound you hear from your digital files.

For the first time, I can now take listening to digital music seriously. Albums that were well recorded sound damn good now. Crappy stuff still sounds crappy. For instance, I downloaded an early Stones album from HD Tracks which supposedly was re-mastered at 24/176.4. I have to assume that the original master tape just wasn’t very good as this is an example of a high-rez download that doesn’t sound very high-rez . I don’t recommend it unless you are a Rolling Stones freak. Anyway, for the first time I can sit down and listen to my server and it will keep my attention and not make me want to get up and change over to an analog source. And for me, that is saying something.

I will have more confessions later.

 

[Ron Party]

I saw that some of the Stones albums were released by HD Tracks and was wondering whether there was some sound quality to be gained. Thanks for posting the observation. Which one did you download?

(Oh, BTW, congrats on reaching the 1,000 post milestone.)

 

[mep]

Ron-It was "Big Hits" (High Tide and Green Grass). I love this album because it has lots of great songs. I just have to think the master tape is not very special. There is no bottom end to speak of as someone decided to roll-off that pesky old bass. The recording just sounds dated in a way that jazz recordings from the 1950s never sound. Maybe we should have had jazz recording engineers record the early rock recordings. The jazz recording engineers certainly knew how to lay down a great sound in a way that escaped early rock recordings for the most part.

 

[Vincent Kars]

I downloaded Foobar and thought I would give it a try.

You might try Foobar/WASAPI (or JRMC/WASAPI event style)
I do think WASAPI gives a slightly more transparent sound than DS
http://thewelltemperedcomputer.com/SW/Players/Foobar.htm

 

[untangle]

Ron-It was "Big Hits" (High Tide and Green Grass). I love this album because it has lots of great songs. I just have to think the master tape is not very special. There is no bottom end to speak of as someone decided to roll-off that pesky old bass. The recording just sounds dated in a way that jazz recordings from the 1950s never sound. Maybe we should have had jazz recording engineers record the early rock recordings. The jazz recording engineers certainly knew how to lay down a great sound in a way that escaped early rock recordings for the most part.

These Stones reissues are one of the many disappointments in hires land. They certainly sound diff than the originals, mostly in a bad way.

Bob

 

[mep]

Vincent-Can you explain what you mean in simple English? I think you are asking me to change a setting in Foobar?

 

[Ron Party]

Maybe we should have had jazz recording engineers record the early rock recordings. The jazz recording engineers certainly knew how to lay down a great sound in a way that escaped early rock recordings for the most part.

Seriously. I would (figuratively) kill for the early Genesis catalog recorded in such a manner.

 

[garylkoh]

Mark,

Under Foobar, click the [File] menu link, and then [Preferences] The following dialog will open up. Click the drop-down list under Devices.



There will be a list of devices through which you can play your music. If you are using the EMU 0404, you should be able to install the ASIO driver which might sound better than WASAPI (the last item on the list).

You might also try changing the buffer size on the same dialog page. Depending on your device, I've found that between 560ms to 680ms sounds the best. Don't ask me to explain why. I can't figure it out either.

 

[mep]

Gary-I just opened up Foobar and I don't have all of the options you are showing on your screen shot. All that shows up is E-MU 0404, Null Output, Primary Sound Driver (which was selected), and ATI HD audio rear output. I went ahead and selected E-MU 0404. Was that right to do? Also, output format was set at 16 bit and I changed it to 24 bit. I also reduced the buffer per your recommendations to 640ms.

I do appreciate your advice on the Jadis, if money was no object, I would give it a try. I have never heard of anyone doing that before you told me about it.

 

[garylkoh]

If the E-MU 0404 says ASIO: Emu 0404, that is correct. If not, just under the Output preferences, is ASIO Virtual Devices. Click that, and you will get another dialog box in which you can select the E-Mu ASIO driver (should have installed when you installed the EMU drivers). Restart Foobar and you will have ASIO and WASAPI options to drive the EMU.

You're welcome. The Jadis is one of the great amps IMO.

 

[mep]

Gary, I don't have anythiing under the output preferences. There is just a box that is grayed out that says dither.

 

[garylkoh]

Gary, I don't have anythiing under the output preferences. There is just a box that is grayed out that says dither.

Right at the top of the dialog box, under [Devices] is a drop down list. Click the down arrow, and a list should come down with ASIO EMU on it. I'll take some screen shots tomorrow when I'm in the office and at the Foobar/EMU computer.

 

[Robin Hood]

Do all bit perfect media players sound the same?

Is this like saying all CD transports that are capable of bit perfect transmission will sound the same? Isn’t the computer just another digital transport, perhaps a substitution and more? Obviously there are many of us who feel that not all CD transports sound the same. There are probably just as many if not more who do not hear any differences between transports.

Or how about the connection from the CD transport to an external DAC. Will toslink sound different from coaxial digital? Will the various digital cables that can be used change the sound? Many of us feel that there are sonic differences in digital transmission even though the bits that enter the digital stream are identical to the bits that exit the digital stream. And again there are those folks who do not hear any differences in toslink or coaxial SPDIF and swear that all digital cables sound the same.

All I can say is that until you hear a difference you will never believe that there is a difference. And if you hear differences in sound you will never believe any explanation why such differences could not possibly exist and you will be quite irritated with those who insist these are imaginary differences in your head.

 

[amirm]

Good post Robin. I encourage people to try the Toslink and S/PDIF connections if they have both. The first time I tested this I was shocked. The difference is not tiny. My pro equipment had multiple type live at the same time so testing was fast. Unfortunately if the source is the PC, switching time is slower as you have to mess with the control panel to select the right output device but still, it is worthwhile doing.

 

[Vincent Kars]

Will toslink sound different from coaxial digital?

I do think the comparison is a bit unlucky.
SPDIF over coax or over optical are totally different hardware implementations of the same protocol.
We do or don't hear a difference but we sure can measure the difference.
In general Toslink is higher on jitter than coax.
If we do hear a difference we can at least produce some measurements explaining why this is possible.
In case of media player (to avoid any misunderstanding, I talk software like J River, Foobar, etc. not streaming media players like Sonos, Squeeze, etc) it is very hard to imagine why they sound different when no DSP is involved.
They do run on the same computer delivering the same bits to the same hardware.

 

[Robin Hood]

I do think the comparison is a bit unlucky.

Isn't the comparison fair and identical if "bits in" and "bits out" is the only yardstick to measure the difference between toslink and coax or Pure Music and iTunes? You know that toslink sounds different from coax because something other than perfect bit transmissions (ie, jitter) clearly shows a difference that you can measure. In comparing media players it seems that you have failed to identify the yardstick that would measure the differences in sound. Which does not mean that different bit perfect media players cannot sound different. Of course if you have never heard any sonic differences between bit perfect media players this point is moot for you. Or if you do hear differences would you just assume that some DSP is involved?

 

[Phelonious Ponk]

All these screen shots and drop-downs and drivers and ASIO and Wasabi (which is quite good with soy sauce, by the way) and monkeys FUBAR....this is why god makes Macs.

Tim

 

[Vincent Kars]

this is why god makes Macs.

and people make
Audirvana
Decibel
Max
XLD
PureMusic
Amarra
Spatial
Mach2
etc
as not everybody is happy with the constrains faith bestow on them

 

[Vincent Kars]

Isn't the comparison fair and identical if "bits in" and "bits out" is the only yardstick to measure the difference between toslink and coax or Pure Music and iTunes? You know that toslink sounds different from coax because something other than perfect bit transmissions (ie, jitter) clearly shows a difference that you can measure.

I do think it is possible that different media players do sound different.
The explanation is probably along the same lines as the difference between WAV and FLAC.
http://www.whatsbestforum.com/showthread.php?2649-FLAC-versus-WAV