DarTZeel and Mcintosh - help in picking amp

[KeithR]

the test that matters is a week of listening to both; which one do you not want to not stop listening to? which gets old? makes you forget you are listening to reproduced music?

agreed - short term swaps have limited value and I now temper expectations doing them. long term listening is the ultimate decision point.

OP- fwiw, have a friend with Chronosonic XVXs who prefers his MC611s to Dagostino Momentums.

 

[thedudeabides]

Not completely happy with your choice ? I find amps too expensive to change after a few years.

The speakers I’m pretty sure about in the sense that I don’t understand why most people get dynamic (cone) speakers..
The amp not so much cause the mcintosh looks a bit tacky.. like a product you buy for the looks :s

ofcourse there are many other amps, but you can’t try em all.



could you care to elaborate please ?

Great post.

 

[gajgmusic]

I support trusting your ears (and your wifes ears). Music and its reproduction is inherently an individual taste. As to the issue of long term versus short term listening, that is always a challenge. You just won't know. In fact I sometimes wonder that people change gear, not for better or worse, but because it is change or difference that they are really looking for.

 

[redandgold]

As a former owner of the MC 1,2 kW and now the dart 458 I follow both sonical preferences. I loved the musical flow and the harmonic expression, the Macs offered. Especially in the midrange. Could have lived for several more years without missing a lot.
But after hearing the darts for some months, the facts were clear for me. By a much higher price the 458 plays easily 1-2 classes higher. No shortcomings to the Macs by much better detail, focus, soundstage, micro and macro dynamics. So I traded in the Macs and never regretted my decision.

 

[germinal]

I wanted to, albeit swiftly, come back to this topic ( for what it’s worth )

I got myself - to test - a mcintosh MC275 mkVI power amp instead of the integrated MA352. This is a nice tube amp and boy.. does it like to rock.. rock music sounds so good with it.. wooehoe even the MA352 lacks in comparison.. ( I am listening on magnetostatics btw )

On the other hand I much prefer the Dartzeel when it comes to other kinds of music ( for example Björk - Joga ) the more detailed and sophisticated music gets the better the Dartzeel sounds. It’s a lot more musical. The mcintosh really makes a mess of it.

But when you wanna play Smashing Pumpkins.. I’ll take the MC275 any day of the week.. the MC275 makes sound good.. the Dartzeel makes bad recordings sound awful

f*ck me

 

[Mike Lavigne]

I wanted to, albeit swiftly, come back to this topic ( for what it’s worth )

I got myself - to test - a mcintosh MC275 mkVI power amp instead of the integrated MA352. This is a tube amp and boy.. does it like to rock.. rock music sounds so good with it.. wooehoe even the MA352 lacks in comparison..

On the other hand I much prefer the Dartzeel when it comes to other kinds of music ( like jazz, classical ) the more detailed and sophisticated music gets the better the Dartzeel sounds. The better the recording maybe.. the more I prefer the Dartzeel.

But when you wanna play Smashing Pumpkins or you know just bad recordings.. I’ll take the MC275 any day of the week.. the MC275 makes bad recordings sound good.. the Dartzeel makes bad recordings sound awful

f*ck me

funny thing, as your system matures the natural truth of the darTZeel does reveal the magic in less perfect recordings, and connect you to them, but on the way to maturity it will not reward distortion. fix the room, the power grid, and the signal path.

but upon approaching the mountain top the darts will never limit you by coloration. coloration will certainly pour a little sugar on the nasties, but the sugar gets everywhere and no way to remove it.

how far do you want to go for the music?

absolutely i'm over-dramatizing things. a MAC275 would be a fun amp to have and live with forever. i'd just have to get my head around it. there is a rainbow of amp choices out there. it's not dart or bust.

 

[Bachtoven]

What didn't you like about the McIntosh MA 12000?

 

[Addicted to hifi]

Hello,

hope someone is able to help me in choosing the right amp.

I have been on a quest the last several weeks in picking an amp for my magnetostatic speakers from the small french company Diptyque. DP-160.

I’m loving the speakers but still need to pick the amp.

I have been testing the following : Gryphon Diablo 300, Michi X5, mcintosh MA 12000, Kora TB-200, Kora TB-400, DarTZeel 8550 mk II…

after testing all these it was clear to me that the DarTZeel was by far the best amp but also by far the most expensive…23.000 euro and this is the price without phono input.

There was one amp left I wanted to try out but was a bit reluctant to do so. On the one hand because of the price, namely the MCintosh MA 352 is almost 1/3th of the price of the DarTZeel and on the other hand because the staff of the shop was laughing that I was even thinking about trying this crazy combo ( with the magnetostatic speakers ) and lastly because I didn’t like the mcintosh MA 12000 which is almost double the price compared tot the MA 352…

after doing some A/B tests I preferred the sound of the DarTZeel.. which came at no surprise to me.. still I wanted to be 100% sure there was no placebo effect at play, so I asked my wife to do some blind testing.. she would hook up the amp and I would listen to both am we did this 2 times.. just to be sure.. and both times I picked the MA 352 as best sounding amp while actually thinking it was the DarTZeel that I choose..

so basically my question is.. is there something wrong with my ears in choosing a 8000 euro amp over a 23.000 euro amp ??

and a more general question.. is there no relation between price/performance in the hifi world ? ???

I’m a bit confused, to say the least… if you read this far, thanks for your time

Definitely nothing wrong with your ears.I to use mcintosh with my Magnapan 30.7s.I did try more expensive amplifiers but mcintosh was better to my ears.

 

[germinal]

I wanted to, albeit swiftly, come back to this topic ( for what it’s worth )

I got myself - to test - a mcintosh MC275 mkVI power amp instead of the integrated MA352. This is a tube amp and boy.. does it like to rock.. rock music sounds so good with it.. wooehoe even the MA352 lacks in comparison..

On the other hand I much prefer the Dartzeel when it comes to other kinds of music ( like jazz, classical ) the more detailed and sophisticated music gets the better the Dartzeel sounds. The better the recording maybe.. the more I prefer the Dartzeel.

But when you wanna play Smashing Pumpkins or you know just bad recordings.. I’ll take the MC275 any day of the week.. the MC275 makes bad recordings sound good.. the Dartzeel makes bad recordings sound awful

f*ck me

What didn't you like about the McIntosh MA 12000?

I tried that one with other speakers.. I think I was comparing it with a gryphon Diablo 300.. MA12000 not transparant enough imho

 

[Addicted to hifi]

Btw welcome germinal to wbf.

 

[germinal]

I just put the Dartzeel as pre-amp for the mcintosh.. before I was going straight from the DAC ( Auralic Aries G2.1 ) to the Mac.. but oh boy.. what a difference this makes.. in a good way so I guess going straight from a DAC to power amp is not a good idea ??

 

[germinal]

Btw welcome germinal to wbf.

Thx

 

[bazelio]

I just put the Dartzeel as pre-amp for the mcintosh.. before I was going straight from the DAC ( Auralic Aries G2.1 ) to the Mac.. but oh boy.. what a difference this makes.. in a good way so I guess going straight from a DAC to power amp is not a good idea ??

Unless the DAC uses digital attenuation or has a severely gimped analog attenuator or output stage (unlikely), then adding a preamp should never improve sound. It'll add coloration, which you may prefer, but going direct is otherwise technically "better".

 

[Addicted to hifi]

Unless the DAC uses digital attenuation or has a severely gimped analog attenuator or output stage (unlikely), then adding a preamp should never improve sound. It'll add coloration, which you may prefer, but going direct is otherwise technically "better".

I tried going direct in to a power amp but it didn’t sound as good as thru my preamp.the sound lost dynamics bass slam etc.

 

[bazelio]

I tried going direct in to a power amp but it didn’t sound as good as thru my preamp.the sound lost dynamics bass slam etc.

Great.

 

[Addicted to hifi]

Great.

A very good preamp will improve the sound of any system and a not so good preamp will sound worse Than going direct.I have tried it many times over the years.

 

[germinal]

A very good preamp will improve the sound of any system and a not so good preamp will sound worse Than going direct.I have tried it many times over the years.

I suppose this must be the case.. why else would a pre-amp something cost 10k.. and even in case of DarTZeel way more..

I’ll do a blind test later today.. but It seemed obvious to me.. I only listened a few minutes after setting it up like that.. ( Dartzeel as pre-amp ) going to test also with a Mc2700 As pre

 

[bazelio]

A very good preamp will improve the sound of any system and a not so good preamp will sound worse Than going direct.I have tried it many times over the years.

No. The active preamp is usually not needed. In some situations it actually is. The Lamm phono stage output, for example, is designed for preamplification. I.e. you *have* to buy another Lamm box, or two, or three depending on how much you want to drop on a preamp. But more often than not, you are just preferring the coloration ("additional dynamics, bass slam, etc") that your preamp is adding. Some call that a "sin of commission". Where source and amplifier impedances are well matched and the system otherwise has sufficient gain (the majority of cases), a pre-amplifer can not technically improve anything. If you like the preamp's sound, though, I'm not trying to stop you from using it. Enjoy. I am, however, suggesting to @germinal, who is clearly on a limited budget, that he stop using price as a proxy for better sound and not be tempted into "logic" like "why would DarTZeel make an expensive preamp if it didn't improve the sound". This is coming from a DarTZeel owner and fan, too.

 

[Addicted to hifi]

I suppose this must be the case.. why else would a pre-amp something cost 10k.. and even in case of DarTZeel way more..

I’ll do a blind test later today.. but It seemed obvious to me.. I only listened a few minutes after setting it up like that.. ( Dartzeel as pre-amp ) going to test also with a Mc2700 As pre

Try both ways and let us know if it’s better with a preamp or not.

 

[Addicted to hifi]

No. The active preamp is usually not needed. In some situations it actually is. The Lamm phono stage output, for example, is designed for preamplification. But more often than not, you are just preferring the coloration ("additional dynamics, bass slam, etc") that your preamp is providing. Where source and amplifier impedances are well matched and the system otherwise has sufficient gain (the majority of cases), a pre-amplifer can not technically improve anything. If you like the preamp's sound, though, I'm not trying to stop you from using it. Enjoy.

I had 3 sacd players that had variable output and I connected them directly to the power amp.they were stax,accuphase and mcintosh but they all sounded better thru the preamp.most people use preamps.