Crystal Disc US$1600 was played with Genesis Speaker

[andymodern]

And what about my own 'bit-for-bit' (Standard Red Book 16/44) burned CDs (MAX BOB) on better CD blank discs; are they a good deal, to me?
...And to whoever had the chance to listen to them at my 'mansion'?

Bruce, FIM CDs sell for roughly between $40 and $100 per unit (disc) right? ...Depending.
That's still a much lower price than a $1,000-2000 Crystal single Disc. ...And how much better sound quality do you get from it?
Gary knows perhaps. ...Or maybe Andy.

People always ask me a question: "How does an audiophile justify the cost of a Crystal Disc to its performance?"

First of all, i have to say Crystal Disc is the best of all the CD formats, and even 33 and 45 rpm LPs! Once you listen to Crystal Disc, you will change your mind how the earth a CD can sound so different! It provides you much more definition, more space and more ambience compared to all other CD and LP formats . Especially the hi and low are more concreted. I compared a title featuring piano performance. When the pianist played several notes in low, i heard notes overlapping each other reproduced from a CD while Crystal Disc gave me all the notes with very clear separation and with much more energized impact!

To answer the question above, i would say that some people want Ford for their daily transportation; some want Mecede Benz; some even want Porches. Some audiophiles like expensive top-of the-line Siltech cable for their gear; some like his wife - Crystal cable; some think Monster Cable or DIY cable is good enough and, most important, fit their budget! People choose what they think they can get most out of it and what they will feel satisfied at that moment (In fact, it is hard to measure satisfaction.) So in same manner, some audiophiles choose US$16.00 CDs; some buy other formats but more expensive; some change to Hi Rez files; and some feel more prestige by owning Crystal Disc.

In fact, it is also very difficult to justify the cost with the performance your gear will get improved with another sets of more expensive cables or DAC. I would say it would never be in proportion! But some audiophiles out there are willing to pay the premium to upgrade their gear! You know some audiophiles told me that they would like to own at least 1 Crystal disc in their collection!

At the last but not the least, you see lots of Ford on street but very few Porches. And more copies of conventional CD can be sold while only small quantity of Crystal Disc are being delivered!

For those who owns expensive Siltech cable (the top-of-the line interconnect cable is marked at about US$24,000 per pair per meter) must have more expensive gear at home; therefore, the price of Crystal Disc will not be their main concern!

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
The pianist, Nobuyuki Tsujii was born blind but with a talent for music, won the gold medal in 2009 Van Cliburn International Piano.
The title below was released in both CD and Crystal Disc and is the one i mentioned above for comparison.

 

[Phelonious Ponk]

If an enthusiast will pay $1,600 for a CD he thinks sounds better, why should we rain on his parade? I have friends who think I am mad for paying more than $200 for a pair of loudspeakers.

Well, some might care about the credibility of the hobby and the industry; I reckon that ship as sailed. Some might not care, as long as we keep them away from the young and impressionable. The not so young, but impressionable? That ship has sailed as well. Then there's the credibility of WBF. The claims for this product have barely fallen short of 'better than the original master.' Could they possibly sound better than a conventional CD in some players? It could happen. And we've hit the end of the reality-based discussion right there. If I were Steve or Amir, I wouldn't want this, or crystal pyramid room treatments, or witch doctor "cures" for cancer, or any other form of blatantly false propaganda to go unchallenged here.

Rain on a parade? I'd call it integrity.

There. It has been said.

Tim

 

[FrantzM]

Hi

I do also have that unease when I see those products and claims. It increases further when I see the claims unchallenged. This put a bad patina on our hobby. So far nothing has come up to substantiate the Crystal CD claims, all the contrary. I also do see creeping up the WBF tendencies of politeness. At this point in time and for me this Crystal Cd sounds (pun intended) as one more way to extract currency from those who want to believe. This thread looks to me like one more vehicle to introduce us to one more dubious (I am measuring my words being a WBFer after all ) and expensive product. I have no doubt that some will fall for it. To repeat Steve: Caveat emptor, still too polite for what I truly think of this product..,

Signing off

 

[Phelonious Ponk]

Frantz, you're too kind. In this case, even I was carefully weighing my words and believe it came out far too polite.

Tim

 

[andymodern]

I said many, many years ago -not without much derisive laughter- that there was more loss in going from a digital master to a CD than from an analog tape to LP. In other words, digital recordings were a lot better than what we [audiophiles] were hearing. In particular, the CDs lost the master's sense of space and harmonic integrity. I think nowadays the different mastering techniques (such as Winston and others are doing) along with better playback equipment and higher Rez files have closed that gap.

30 some years ago CD came in and it looked like LP were gone. LP did disappear in consumer market for long time, but it come back now. It actually has been there for all times. Look at the disco industry. Disco Jockey want LP especially 45 rpm all the times.

Last year, HMV, the largest CD shop in the world almost closed down. People start asking me how long the CD industry can survive. I don't have the answer. The end may come soon or may never come! Or at last only audiophiles CD can sell. Record companies (my company is one of those) in Asia are not willing to open their hirez source for download. Or i should say they tend not to open their hirez files for downloading before they can find a way to earn enough revenue in order to justify the production and operation cost. In this case CD industry here may survive longer.

Quite a few audiophiles encourage me that they like physical product, CD & LP. We don't own Hirez files because there is no resale value even though they sound good! Some audiophiles like LP not because LP sound much superior than CD. They just like the analog sound and enjoy the complicated process to play a LP (when compared to play a CD or a hirez file). They also like to enjoy holding the CD case and reading the booklet! They can bring the CD to the artist and ask for autograph. Thanks for their encouragement! But after all, either more audiophiles standing for this attitude by actually purchasing a physical CD or more and more music lovers paying for the music download can help us; otherwise at the end we don't have enough budget to do any more recording!

 

[asiufy]

It's very clear (errm.. crystal clear ) that there might be substance behind their claims, and the Crystal CD might indeed sound better than regular CDs, simply because even properly burnt CD-Rs sound better than them.

Now, whether the improvement is worth $1600 is another matter entirely. But then, it's the same question we've faced throughout the hobby, with equipment. Is that tonearm really worth US$ 30k? Or US$100k for that turntable? Or $42k for that transport? And then, to a lesser extent, is $1600 for a "better" CD media worth it?


alexandre

 

[Phelonious Ponk]

It's very clear (errm.. crystal clear ) that there might be substance behind their claims, and the Crystal CD might indeed sound better than regular CDs, simply because even properly burnt CD-Rs sound better than them.

Now, whether the improvement is worth $1600 is another matter entirely.

Might be some substance to that claim, sure. Might. Unfortunately, that's not the claim being made:

First of all, i have to say Crystal Disc is the best of all the CD formats, and even 33 and 45 rpm LPs! Once you listen to Crystal Disc, you will change your mind how the earth a CD can sound so different! It provides you much more definition, more space and more ambience compared to all other CD and LP formats .

And to be clear, I don't mean to impugn the integrity of andymodern. I think, as is often the case with such things, he may actually believe it.

Tim

 

[Mike Lavigne]

People always ask me a question: "How does an audiophile justify the cost of a Crystal Disc to its performance?"

First of all, i have to say Crystal Disc is the best of all the CD formats, and even 33 and 45 rpm LPs!

maybe there is a bit of a language issue here, but saying that Crystal Disc is best of all CD formats, is entirely different than saying Crystal Disc is superior to 33rpm and 45rpm vinyl. are you claiming that Crystal Disc is better than those formats?

help me out here. please specify exactly which digital player and vinyl system (tt, arm, cartridge, phono pre) where this happened where the analog source was the same for the Crystal Disc and the 45rpm Lp and yet the Crystal Disc was clearly better than the Lp's.

or is this just a generalization based on your personal viewpoint? .....marketing.

Once you listen to Crystal Disc, you will change your mind how the earth a CD can sound so different! It provides you much more definition, more space and more ambience compared to all other CD and LP formats . Especially the hi and low are more concreted. I compared a title featuring piano performance. When the pianist played several notes in low, i heard notes overlapping each other reproduced from a CD while Crystal Disc gave me all the notes with very clear separation and with much more energized impact!

it's easy for me to agree that Redbook.....16/44....CD....can sound great. and that there are many ways to take a basic CD or 16/44 file and improve it, or change it in some way. but that is only variables within the performance envelope of that format. and i'm not knocking CD......it's excellent in it's own right.

but describing improvements from the Crystal Disc process within the 16/44 variations does not justify holding it superior to higher rez PCM, dsd or analog....where the source is higher rez than 16/44.

 

[andymodern]

maybe there is a bit of a language issue here, but saying that Crystal Disc is best of all CD formats, is entirely different than saying Crystal Disc is superior to 33rpm and 45rpm vinyl. are you claiming that Crystal Disc is better than those formats?

Sorry about my language problem! Yes, i do mean that Crystal Disc is the best of all CD format! Regarding to the result of Crystal Disc and LP comparison, it is just my experience from visiting other audiophile friends and playing the Crystal Disc and 33 & 45 rpm LP in their gear. Actually i should not even describe this comparison because it is like comparing orange and apple! Same title in different format playing on different system does not seem fair to both format!

You may think i believe in Crystal Disc because i am selling it. I can say nothing! I just wish i could demonstrate Crystal Disc and CD in same title to you! Or making it more interesting i could even demo the original DSD source files in same title too to find out which is the best. I think it would be fun and there would be a lot of discussion! Audiophiles like A-B comparison! I like it too!

 

[Steve Williams]

People always ask me a question: "How does an audiophile justify the cost of a Crystal Disc to its performance?"

First of all, i have to say Crystal Disc is the best of all the CD formats, and even 33 and 45 rpm LPs! Once you listen to Crystal Disc, you will change your mind how the earth a CD can sound so different! It provides you much more definition, more space and more ambience compared to all other CD and LP formats . Especially the hi and low are more concreted. I compared a title featuring piano performance. When the pianist played several notes in low, i heard notes overlapping each other reproduced from a CD while Crystal Disc gave me all the notes with very clear separation and with much more energized impact!

To answer the question above, i would say that some people want Ford for their daily transportation; some want Mecede Benz; some even want Porches. Some audiophiles like expensive top-of the-line Siltech cable for their gear; some like his wife - Crystal cable; some think Monster Cable or DIY cable is good enough and, most important, fit their budget! People choose what they think they can get most out of it and what they will feel satisfied at that moment (In fact, it is hard to measure satisfaction.) So in same manner, some audiophiles choose US$16.00 CDs; some buy other formats but more expensive; some change to Hi Rez files; and some feel more prestige by owning Crystal Disc.

In fact, it is also very difficult to justify the cost with the performance your gear will get improved with another sets of more expensive cables or DAC. I would say it would never be in proportion! But some audiophiles out there are willing to pay the premium to upgrade their gear! You know some audiophiles told me that they would like to own at least 1 Crystal disc in their collection!

At the last but not the least, you see lots of Ford on street but very few Porches. And more copies of conventional CD can be sold while only small quantity of Crystal Disc are being delivered!

For those who owns expensive Siltech cable (the top-of-the line interconnect cable is marked at about US$24,000 per pair per meter) must have more expensive gear at home; therefore, the price of Crystal Disc will not be their main concern!

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
The pianist, Nobuyuki Tsujii was born blind but with a talent for music, won the gold medal in 2009 Van Cliburn International Piano.
The title below was released in both CD and Crystal Disc and is the one i mentioned above for comparison.
View attachment 11365

This is called "rationalizing" where I come from

 

[Steve Williams]

I have asked the question repeatedly here without answer from Andy or others in the know whether the Crystal disc provides the very best Redbook or are the claims such that the crystal disk bests all other audio formats ( I see the claim is now being made that it is better than 33 1/3 and 45 rpm LP's).

I am not trying to rain on anyone's parade here but the gauntlet has been thrown down and as Frantz and Tim suggest it is reasonable to ask questions. I have asked my questions since the start of the thread but yet to have a response

 

[andymodern]

I have asked the question repeatedly here without answer from Andy or others in the know whether the Crystal disc provides the very best Redbook or are the claims such that the crystal disk bests all other audio formats ( I see the claim is now being made that it is better than 33 1/3 and 45 rpm LP's).

I am not trying to rain on anyone's parade here but the gauntlet has been thrown down and as Frantz and Tim suggest it is reasonable to ask questions. I have asked my questions since the start of the thread but yet to have a response

Yes, Crystal Disc is made according to the Redbook specification. I don't have every detail figure with me. Memory-Tech should have! And also yes, Crystal Disc is the best of all CD formats because the way it is produced is totally different than the conventional poly-carbonate CD! (please refer to the manufacturing process of both formats in this thread http://www.whatsbestforum.com/showt...US-1600-was-played-with-Genesis-Speaker/page7)

(Well, i should not say anything about comparing CD and LP because they are 2 totally different formats one is apple and the other is orange!)

 

[microstrip]

Well, some might care about the credibility of the hobby and the industry; I reckon that ship as sailed. Some might not care, as long as we keep them away from the young and impressionable. The not so young, but impressionable? That ship has sailed as well. Then there's the credibility of WBF. The claims for this product have barely fallen short of 'better than the original master.' Could they possibly sound better than a conventional CD in some players? It could happen. And we've hit the end of the reality-based discussion right there. If I were Steve or Amir, I wouldn't want this, or crystal pyramid room treatments, or witch doctor "cures" for cancer, or any other form of blatantly false propaganda to go unchallenged here.

Rain on a parade? I'd call it integrity.

There. It has been said.

Tim

Although I find these arguments about the "credibility of this hobby and the industry" and "bad patina" moving, I can not take them too seriously. This is an hobby that lives on creating an illusion, and must assume its risks. Analogies with other activities, such as medicine are highly misleading.

The claim of "better than the original master" can only have only one interesting interpretation - that this CD played through a specific player and DAC sounded better that the master played through the same DAC - and here "sounded better" just means was preferred by more people.

Gary reported on his audition, an opinion that I value highly (others may have a different weighting), IMHO Andy is just filling space, most of time using a mix of absurd marketing and pseudo-technical.

I have raised this question previously in WBF - why do some CD transports sound different, attracting our preferences over most music servers, while being bit-exact? IMHO only when we give up just sweeping these questions under the rug, asking for the certified scientific evidence of the difference or just stating they are too small to be meaningful, the credibility of the hobby will improve.

 

[Mike Lavigne]

(Well, i should not say anything about comparing CD and LP because they are 2 totally different formats one is apple and the other is orange!)

then be careful to not mention those formats or any others in your posts. claiming a superior approach to the CD format is relatively benign. lots of people do that.

 

[FrantzM]

Although I find these arguments about the "credibility of this hobby and the industry" and "bad patina" moving, I can not take them too seriously. This is an hobby that lives on creating an illusion, and must assume its risks. Analogies with other activities, such as medicine are highly misleading.

The claim of "better than the original master" can only have only one interesting interpretation - that this CD played through a specific player and DAC sounded better that the master played through the same DAC - and here "sounded better" just means was preferred by more people.

Gary reported on his audition, an opinion that I value highly (others may have a different weighting), IMHO Andy is just filling space, most of time using a mix of absurd marketing and pseudo-technical.

I have raised this question previously in WBF - why do some CD transports sound different, attracting our preferences over most music servers, while being bit-exact? IMHO only when we give up just sweeping these questions under the rug, asking for the certified scientific evidence of the difference, or just stating they are too small to be meaningful the credibility of the hobby will improve.

ok micro

 

[andymodern]

then be careful to not mention those formats or any others in your posts. claiming a superior approach to the CD format is relatively benign. lots of people do that.

That was my fault! Thanks, Mike!

 

[Steve Williams]

Yes, Crystal Disc is made according to the Redbook specification. I don't have every detail figure with me. Memory-Tech should have! And also yes, Crystal Disc is the best of all CD formats because the way it is produced is totally different than the conventional poly-carbonate CD! (please refer to the manufacturing process of both formats in this thread http://www.whatsbestforum.com/showt...US-1600-was-played-with-Genesis-Speaker/page7)

(Well, i should not say anything about comparing CD and LP because they are 2 totally different formats one is apple and the other is orange!)

then be careful to not mention those formats or any others in your posts. claiming a superior approach to the CD format is relatively benign. lots of people do that.

This was my question to you in another post.....

http://www.whatsbestforum.com/showt...enesis-Speaker&p=213166&viewfull=1#post213166

you seem to suggest that the Crystal Disk is closer to the master than any other format OR is it just redbook

 

[slowGEEZR]

I wonder if there will be any of these disks played at RMAF this year? Regardless how they sound, they cost more than I'm willing to pay, but I'd love to hear one.

 

[Phelonious Ponk]

I have asked the question repeatedly here without answer from Andy or others in the know whether the Crystal disc provides the very best Redbook or are the claims such that the crystal disk bests all other audio formats ( I see the claim is now being made that it is better than 33 1/3 and 45 rpm LP's).

I am not trying to rain on anyone's parade here but the gauntlet has been thrown down and as Frantz and Tim suggest it is reasonable to ask questions. I have asked my questions since the start of the thread but yet to have a response

I know you've asked, Steve, I just think perhaps you've been too gentle. I'm here for you, man.



Tim

 

[andymodern]

This was my question to you in another post.....

http://www.whatsbestforum.com/showt...enesis-Speaker&p=213166&viewfull=1#post213166

you seem to suggest that the Crystal Disk is closer to the master than any other format OR is it just redbook

To answer your question, i would like to quote what the producer and the recording engineer of the following Crystal Disc stated to me.


Right after I received the Crystal Disc from Memory-Tech, i brought it to the recording studio where this title was recorded and mastered. The engineer brought up the DSD source files and played to us. Then put in the Crystal Disc in his CD player (i forgot the brand and model, but definitely not CD transport with high end DAC) and played it to us.

After the comparison, both the engineer and the producer summarized that Crystal Disc was amazing. Crystal Disc sounded little bit brighter, but it was hardly to tell which was superior than the other. Maybe they were too polite to me. I would say that Crystal Disc was very close to the source master!

If not very "close", the producer (also the investor and an audiophile) would not invest in producing Crystal Disc which was not cheap to make!