Cessaro Liszt

[bonzo75]

The Cessaro Liszt I heard yesterday were the best I have heard Opera, Jazz (Sax, piano, jazz drums), violins and Bob Dylan on. For rock drums and power chords the bass was overpowering the room, muddying the other frequencies. Though his room has two major peaks, I think at 20 and 35 Hz.
Imaging and soundstaging was also the highest I have heard

 

[LL21]

Spiritofmusic has heard these (Purite?) I think...and had equally tremendous things to say about them. How do they compare to other SOTA speakers? I imagine you were not able to hear them side by side, so any 'thoughts' or impressions are appreciated.

 

[bonzo75]

Hi, when you say other SOTA speakers that's a huge ocean . I am not a fan of box speakers, especially Wilsons and focals (which is why listening to yours if I had the chance, with all those tweaks might be interesting). I am more a planar and horn guy, I find the Cessaros to be much superior to avantgardes (of which I like only the trios, not the duos). I also like Tune Audio Anima...

These were magical because they have the best midrange I have heard, with high quality compressed TAD drivers sending the sound out into the room from a height. They are both large sounding and mellifluous, no harshness.

And Keith didn't optimize his system, i.e. no power mods, isolation, tweaks, or cabling. Just the weiss into a passive pre into a Bacoon into the Liszts.

 

[LL21]

Hi, when you say other SOTA speakers that's a huge ocean . I am not a fan of box speakers, especially Wilsons and focals (which is why listening to yours if I had the chance, with all those tweaks might be interesting). I am more a planar and horn guy, I find the Cessaros to be much superior to avantgardes (of which I like only the trios, not the duos). I also like Tune Audio Anima...

These were magical because they have the best midrange I have heard, with high quality compressed TAD drivers sending the sound out into the room from a height. They are both large sounding and mellifluous, no harshness.

And Keith didn't optimize his system, i.e. no power mods, isolation, tweaks, or cabling. Just the weiss into a passive pre into a Bacoon into the Liszts.

Thanks...and appreciate your candor. Interestingly, I have always always admired and really enjoyed panels/stats. I was T-H-I-S close to buying a second hand pair of Apogee Stages...they were and still are tremendous speakers imho. That said, when I moved over to the X1s I found something that gave me a surprising amount of the macrodynamic alacrity/speed of an electrostatic but with greater propulsive bass/power.

That said, where my X1s did NOT originally give me the stat feel was its speed in delivery of microdynamic nuances which are part of what makes a stat so special imho. I got a lot of microdynamics, but somehow it did not seem to dig as effortlessly, and I found greater solidity of sound, note, body...but those note edges seemed rougher/thicker/crude-er if that's even a word.

However, over time with four changes to the X1s, the clarity and microdynamics have improved a LOT: Entreq Vibb (6kg) on top of the modules wedged hard in the back to dampen vibration, change of tweeters after the old ones started to break down to newer Focals (Maxx3 generation), 10kg of mass damping in the bass port (not recommended but works in my case) and Ultra 5s underneath.

I still don't think its going to be enough for a pure stat-phile but I am happy and its body/presence and all-out slam are very, very important to me the X1s deliver in spades.

As for the Cessaro...I really would love to hear them, and look forward to it when I get the time. Looking at the photo, I could see there being potential for a lot of bass-heavy 'whoomp' at certain frequencies.

 

[bonzo75]

Yes but those tweaks you mention are speaker agnostic.

Just ask Keith at purite, very friendly guy and you can go up to bounds green any s Saturday or Sunday.

There is one apogee in Netherlands called apogee grand available on sale, one of only 7 such speakers existing in the world. It can be driven by 6 SET amps

 

[LL21]

Yes but those tweaks you mention are speaker agnostic.

Just ask Keith at purite, very friendly guy and you can go up to bounds green any s Saturday or Sunday.

There is one apogee in Netherlands called apogee grand available on sale, one of only 7 such speakers existing in the world. It can be driven by 6 SET amps

Yes, good isolation, sometimes upgraded parts (particularly those recommended by the manufacturer) generally help. Will definitely try to speak with Keith.

As for Apogee Grands, it sure would be fun to hear...but they make X1s look like Sashas, and the amount of ancillary equipment is too daunting for me. If I went bigger and could swing the mighty cost, it would be to Arrakis and be done. If I could fit big Genesis, that would certainly be a contender (and they also have lots of ancillary equipment) but I don't see that happening.

 

[Audio Meister]

I am not a fan of box speakers, especially Wilsons and focals (which is why listening to yours if I had the chance, with all those tweaks might be interesting). I am more a planar and horn guy, I find the Cessaros to be much superior to avantgardes (of which I like only the trios, not the duos). I also like Tune Audio Anima...

The Liszt is a great speaker however please bear in mind they are significantly more costly than what you are comparing them against. The Liszts are £100,000 a pair. The Duos are £16,000/pair, the Trios start at £40,000/pair. I don't know the price of the Tune audios.
Comparing the Liszt against the Duo is like comparing an Audi R8 against an MX5...

 

[bonzo75]

Agreed. The tune audios at 30 to 40. The trios require subs. Anyway this wasn't about price, I was making my preferences known. In the absence of another horn to judge at the Liszt price level I can't compare with anything else. Oh yes, forgot, I am not an Acapella fan, they are 40 ish.

 

[spiritofmusic]

Audio Meister , this actually is a discussion on the absolute qualities of the spkr, not a price comparison. Ked and I are totally smitten by this spkr, and other than the caveat on bass, I believe from the experiences of high end box spkrs I've had, it wipes the floor w/bigger Magicos and Wilsons, in the areas of tone, texture, dynamics, transparency, jump factor, and sheer enveloping soundstage - esp. height of image which I've never experienced before.
like Ked, I had a major reservation w/the bass - not it's absolute quality and quantity, it was great here. No, more room/bass interaction, I do believe they need more space to breathe. It's the first full range horn I've heard (others being the Avantgarde Trio w/conventional powered subs, and Tune Audio Anima) that integrated across the spectrum seamlessly, had no horn shout, no artificially blown up panoramic imaging. Just approaching the impact of real unamplified music, with tone and texture to die for.
I have a plan to relocate in the next few years where I'm going to do my best to have a large dedicated space, min 25' x 22' x 13'-25' pitched ceiling, and if funds permit, this is the first spkr I'm going back to investigate.

 

[Audio Meister]

I am well aware how good the Liszt is but you need to appreciate that cost does come into the equation. For example one driver in the Liszt costs more that a good pair of conventional speakers, maybe the cost of a pair of Avantgarde Uno Finos.
My pair arrive on the 20th May.

 

[bonzo75]

Awesome. Congrats. Not sure if costs come into the equation, I have heard 100k box speakers and walked out bored. Personally think that the 2000 pound electromotion outdoes the 48k Wilson alexis, but that's my preference. Am sure the alexis has expensive parts.

 

[spiritofmusic]

If anyone is going is going to Munich, I believe they'll be playing in the Cessaro room which is bound to be a different challenge than at the UK dealer, and hence any reports back esp. wrt the quality of it's bass-room integration, would be much appreciated.

 

[Audio Meister]

If anyone is going is going to Munich, I believe they'll be playing in the Cessaro room which is bound to be a different challenge than at the UK dealer, and hence any reports back esp. wrt the quality of it's bass-room integration, would be much appreciated.

The Liszt's were used at last years Munich Show

They were also used at RMAF 2013

The Liszts need a large room and very careful matching to the electronics as the are nearly 100dB efficient.

 

[spiritofmusic]

Audio Meister, my room is 28' x 22' x 13', I listen to one half of the 28' width, rel. live (solid floor plus concrete ceiling w/some judicious damping: blinds, woolen rug, large paintings). How do you think the Liszts might integrate in my room?

 

[Audio Meister]

Audio Meister, my room is 28' x 22' x 13', I listen to one half of the 28' width, rel. live (solid floor plus concrete ceiling w/some judicious damping: blinds, woolen rug, large paintings). How do you think the Liszts might integrate in my room?

It is impossible to say for sure how they will integrate into your room, just like any speaker really. My experience with supplying and installing horns over 17 years has shown that horn speakers are not fussy to get good results in almost any room.
However you really need to be seated a minimum of 4-5 metres from the speakers with space behind your listening position, and if you can manage it, sitting even further away the better. That is to get the best results. Personally with a speaker like this I would fire the speaker down the length of the room. I will be firing my pair down a 32' room and the listening position is 2/3 to 3/4 down the room.

Regarding controls: Your own amplifier drives the lower midrange driver, the midrange horn and high frequency horn. The bass horn takes over below 80Hz and this is powered by a separate integrated amplifier and active crossover mounted in the rear of each speaker. There are only controls for adjusting the bass horn section (from 80Hz downwards), apart from that there are no other controls for adjusting any other frequency range. The other drive units are all matched for output and phase and are very carefully aligned on the crossover so they integrate perfectly. Note: the bass is 3db down at about 35Hz so thunderous bass rattling things in the room should not be an issue, unless the bass horn is not correctly adjusted.

The main issue with horns due to their high efficiency is they become a like a magnifying lens on your amplification, so any shortcomings in your amplifiers will be shown up very easily. There are very few manufacturers who design their amplifiers to work with high efficiency and I would say this will be more of an issue than worrying about whether the Liszts will integrate in your room. With a speaker of this quality be prepared to spent some time (and money) getting the system to work correctly and build the rest of your system to work around the Liszts. This is the proper way to do things so you end up with a speaker that will last a lifetime.

 

[spiritofmusic]

I think you're right Keith. I'm making plans to move, where I'll dedicate a similar size space just for audio duties, and I think the Liszts will fit right in. I've listened to so many systems in so many rooms, and room-bass integration is often the Achilles' heel that restricts optimal performance, hence my concerns in this area.
I have to say my experience at your place was as near-epiphany as I've ever got from audio. Treble energy and midband transparency were second to none IMHO, in addition to dynamics and wrap-around soundstage that may be close to SOTA. I've never experienced height in musical reproduction before, and this was a revelation. Equal measure "chills up/down spine" and "jump factor" made this experience as close to unamplified live music I've yet heard.
I was just as impressed by the lack of usual horn artifacts (midrange "honk" I heard w/the Tune Audio Animas, discontinuity w/bass reproduction and overscaled soundstaging that I heard some yrs back w/the Avantgarde Trio horns w/powered subs) that in the past have distracted me from getting past initial shock of the horns experience into totally relaxing into the music.
The bass certainly was a challenge to get right, no surprise there, but so much of it was right (texture/tonal discrimination/overall extension) that I'm cautiously confident given a room that allows space for the Liszts to breathe, maybe w/some judicious treatment, this final piece of the jigsaw can slot into place.
I'm more confident of this, since a fantastic power cord/interconnect/spkr cable manufacturer, who's opinions I value (and whom I have bought products from) heard the Liszts at yours, was highly impressed, and felt there were no inherent issues re bass in the spkr design itself.

 

[spiritofmusic]

Audio Meister, on the amp front I'm running a Hovland HP200 tube pre, and Audion Black Shadow SETs, both of which I chose over a fair number of auditions of competing products. The SETs I'm seriously considering maxxing out w/full all-silver wiring/transformers etc, which I would hope would take things to another level. Re the room, there may be a good possibility that I'll plan for 32' x 25' x 15'-25' (double/triple height pitched ceiling). Can't see myself wanting/needing to go bigger (unless I'm prepared to take a shower on the patio !)

 

[bonzo75]

With such a big room, you can have the Liszts in front, swivel around and listen to a fullrange panel when you feel like it, turn your chair left for the box speakers, and TV with surround components on the right.

 

[spiritofmusic]

I'll pass on the multi system path Bonzo, unless of course you're prepared to fund it ! My move is purely speculative, so no need to discuss it further, but the Liszt remains on my, ahem, list as my go-to SOTA final choice. This list doesn't stretch to any other spkrs as it happens.

 

[hvbias]

I would love to hear the higher end Cessaro's, TAD compression drivers are fantastic. spiritofmusic are the all silver transformer amps you are referring to by Thomas Mayer?