Can one find realism in box speakers that cost less than $150K after experiencing dynamics of horns and horn-type speakers?

[Rhapsody]

We love to read and learn and listen the fascinating stuff ...

Yep, understood. Enjoy

 

[tima]

I will throw my 2 cents in regarding A/B comparisons......they make me dizzy. Why? because-

-The TT that is being used in this case a VYGER Atlantis has several variables (cartridge, phono stage (power cord), cables, what it is sitting on, chemistry with what it is sitting on (stand, isolation etc).

The chemistry between all of these variables and changing just one of them can tilt results one way or the other.

-The digital, in this case the Extreme ( fiber or internet input from Modem), dac, interface between Extreme and dac, cables, power cords on each item all of the various Extreme adjustable set up options, what everything is sitting on (stand, platforms) all can skew the results one way or the other.

-Vinyl or file availability regarding when they were cut from the original analog recordings- In my world I just don't care about having the closest to the master tape original as the hundreds of customers that I deal with, not one of them cares.

The only people that I know that care are several people here on WBF. So for this exercise we are trying to get a few good samples that can be used that are good test cases to compare with BUT with the multitude of changeable variables mentioned above, I would not take the results to the bank. Too many combinations of variables for either the digital or analog that could skew the results one way or the other.

-When you do these analog/digital comparisons human preference is definitely involved.

-When the comparisons are done they only matter in that specific room, with that specific equipment, on that day with the power in the building or the humidity outside, with those specific people listening that you can make any type of conclusions. BUT those conclusions imho don't have much too do with what someone else might experience with their set- up.

In my world the vinyl, the R2R and the Extreme all sound different. One doesn't sound "better" to me, they just sound different. I can get goose-pumps from all three formats, depends on the music to me usually vs. what it sounds like.

Again, just m 2 cents, nothing to do what anyone else would think about it or am I saying this is "the way it is", it is just this way to me

I'm probably walking on eggs here and with all respect, reading a strongly worded opinion from an audio dealer against comparing different products seems a bit 'odd'. (trying to be delicate here.)

Of course everything happens in a context, everything. But our words still have meaning across time. Of course there are human preferences involved - that's kinda the point, to discover what they are, or at least to have the experience. If your point is that comparing products has little value because everyone has a different experience, as if that will never yield anything objective, the 'true' result, that, we'll never get to the ding an sich - okay, most of us know that. If it's an ' I love all my children equally' and don't want them compared, okay, it will still happen, most people can't adopt all of them.

The reason it came up here is because EuroDriver said you spent some time playing the same music using two high-end products. A description of those experiences would be interesting to read rather than be discouraged.

Just my thoughts...etc.

 

[Rhapsody]

I'm probably walking on eggs here and with all respect, reading a strongly worded opinion from an audio dealer against comparing different products seems a bit 'odd'. (trying to be delicate here.)

Of course everything happens in a context, everything. But our words still have meaning across time. Of course there are human preferences involved - that's kinda the point, to discover what they are, or at least to have the experience. If your point is that comparing products has little value because everyone has a different experience, as if that will never yield anything objective, the 'true' result, that, we'll never get to the ding an sich - okay, most of us know that. If it's an ' I love all my children equally' and don't want them compared, okay, it will still happen, most people can't adopt all of them.

The reason it came up here is because EuroDriver said you spent some time playing the same music using two high-end products. A description of those experiences would be interesting to read rather than be discouraged.

Just my thoughts...etc.

Sorry I said anything I encourage you to ask and anyone that wants to answer please do.

 

[tima]

Sorry I said anything I encourage you to ask and anyone that wants to answer please do.

Please, no apology needed - you had a strong opinion and that's fine. I understand it's business too. Comments on the experience of hearing the Taiko product and the Vyger with the same music don't come along very often.
.

 

[Rhapsody]

I'm probably walking on eggs here and with all respect, reading a strongly worded opinion from an audio dealer against comparing different products seems a bit 'odd'. (trying to be delicate here.)

Of course everything happens in a context, everything. But our words still have meaning across time. Of course there are human preferences involved - that's kinda the point, to discover what they are, or at least to have the experience. If your point is that comparing products has little value because everyone has a different experience, as if that will never yield anything objective, the 'true' result, that, we'll never get to the ding an sich - okay, most of us know that. If it's an ' I love all my children equally' and don't want them compared, okay, it will still happen, most people can't adopt all of them.

The reason it came up here is because EuroDriver said you spent some time playing the same music using two high-end products. A description of those experiences would be interesting to read rather than be discouraged.

Just my thoughts...etc.

Tima,

I'm not sure if you read the thread on the Creme de le Creme thread yesterday regarding the comparisons that EuroDriver mentioned? We were doing comparisons between the VYGER and the Extreme. When we presented our thoughts in that we were told that the vinyl we were using to do the comparisons was I think the word used was a "junk" recording.

Then we or at least I started to think about it and with not knowing the true sources of the original recordings (vinyl or digital) and the copies we were using for both digital and vinyl and then considering all of the variables that are involved with both the digital and analog chains, I feel that it is unfair to give false information/comparisons. Nothing more than that.

I will let others do the comparisons and if people want to believe the results of these comparisons is good information, although I know 100% that it is not "good information", then it's totally fine with me.

So I do not discourage those asking or others presenting their findings I just do not personally subscribe to the process, especially pertaining to my customers and friends, which I strive to give good, accurate information regarding products that I represent.

 

[tima]

Tima,

I'm not sure if you read the thread on the Creme de le Creme thread yesterday regarding the comparisons that EuroDriver mentioned? We were doing comparisons between the VYGER and the Extreme. When we presented our thoughts in that we were told that the vinyl we were using to do the comparisons was I think the word used was a "junk" recording.

Then we or at least I started to think about it and with not knowing the true sources of the original recordings (vinyl or digital) and the copies we were using for both digital and vinyl and then considering all of the variables that are involved with both the digital and analog chains, I feel that it is unfair to give false information/comparisons. Nothing more than that.

I will let others do the comparisons and if people want to believe the results of these comparisons is good information, although I know 100% that it is not "good information", then it's totally fine with me.

So I do not discourage those asking or others presenting their findings I just do not personally subscribe to the process, especially pertaining to my customers and friends, which I strive to give good, accurate information regarding products that I represent.

Sure. I no longer have a 'player' or dac so I don't read as many threads on specific digital products, so have not read that long thread. There will always be folks who will quibble about small details - it comes with avid participation. You'd get that no matter what. Imo that should not be a deterrent to sharing experience and possibly advancing the hobby as long as the context is laid out. People can choose to share if the want. I understand you're faced with a balancing act. No worries.

 

[microstrip]

Tima,

I'm not sure if you read the thread on the Creme de le Creme thread yesterday regarding the comparisons that EuroDriver mentioned? We were doing comparisons between the VYGER and the Extreme. When we presented our thoughts in that we were told that the vinyl we were using to do the comparisons was I think the word used was a "junk" recording. (...)

If I had to discard a recording each time a member of WBF says it is a "junk" recording I would own an empty collection, even the John Cage 4'33" probably would have to go ...

 

[Don Reid]

So many of the respondents on this thread are more knowledgeable than me that I hesitate to chime in, but I do have a few thoughts. To begin with most of the speaker systems described are not horn systems but are instead hybrid speakers that include horns. I think this is important. Horn bass couples with horn mids and highs in a synergistic way that is not possible with hybrid systems. When designing my DIY horn speaker system the solution I first tried was was to combine the bass bins of Klipschorns back in the room corners with wide range and super tweeter horns out in the room where they could image better. I knew the time/distance difference was untenable so I solved this problem with a DEQX DSP. I know this will mark me as a tin eared apostate to many, but I believe the benefits of speaker correction, room correction, time and phase correction, etc. definitely out weigh the negatives. The woofers and wide range drivers are separated by over sixteen feet, but with the DEQX they sound as though the acoustic centers of the two drivers are within 3mm of each other.
I found the Klipschorn bass rolled off at too high a frequency to suit me so I changed to Bill Fitzmaurice designed HT Tuba 25 Hz 1/8 wave folded corner horns. I really like the SQ they provide, and they are "only" 18 cubic Ft. enclosures. My wife of over fifty years not only approved of them but also spent many hours helping me apply blonde Burmese teak veneer to the two big enclosures. These were designed as subwoofers, but using 96 dB/octave roll off slopes I found it very suitable to cross them over at 200 Hz.
The system is completed with Oris 150 horns driven by AER BD3 drivers and Fostex T900A bullet super tweeters. No, I don't hear any plastic coloration from the Oris horns.
Power is provided by a Pass Labs X150 on the bass and two First Watt F3 stereo amps on the wide range and tweeter horns. I originally used Cary 2a3 SET monoblocks on the wide range and tweeters, but I found that I preferred the single ended, single gain stage, J-FET output First Watt amps.
After years of programming and reprogramming the DEQX and even getting professional help with the programming I find my fully horn loaded, triamplified, three way horn system to be very good. I am also very gratified by the comments of fellow audiophiles who have heard them.

 

[Nascimento]

Once one hears the startling, life-like dynamics of a horn or horn-type system, the more fake box speakers sound. They may sound good, but just not real once you have that experience and know what's possible in terms of dynamics...The box speaker technologies under $150K sound as slow as molasses to me.

What do you guys think?

You should listen to Tannoy Westminster, you may end up liking it!

 

[Skanda]

OK, a little personal exposure might help (or not). As a young guy I admit to smoking too much pot. Now that it is legal in Oregon and Washington I admit to enjoying a toke now and then... when I ride my bike where there is no traffic, in the mountains, or along the great beaches here in Oregon. I also enjoy a toke occasionally, with a glass of wine, when I listen to music. I just get totally into the music, and the Alexia with my current rig are extremely enjoyable delivering range and dynamics with visceral impact that feels like music to me. Sober, the system is great, with a toke and a glass of wine I become absorbed.

When heard Roma @ Bob’s place in NYC, it was mid-day. I almost never listen to music in the daytime. I prefer the dim lighting in my room, in the evening. Well, mid-day in a well lit room the Roma speakers had me hearing music, with no perceptual enhancements, that was as good as being a little high in a darkened room — even better. Air, placement of instruments, tonality, depth and width of soundstage, dynamics, everything we tend to value in hi-end audio, nuance, delicacy, emotional engagement, but significantly ease and flow. Box speakers, in comparison, seem like they are working hard to squeeze out the sound, i.e. they feel forced. I greatly enjoy my Alexia, they are exceptional speakers. I heard the WAMM in a private invitation with myself and one audio buddy with me. The Diesis Roma drew me in instantly, made me pay attention to the music. The WAMMs forced me to listen in a technical “what does 3/4 million dollars get me” kind of way. I was happy (?) to learn the Roma were less than the price of Wilson Alexx, and I’d have zero hesitancy choosing Roma at $100k to any box speaker anywhere near double the price.

@Bobvin i wanted to bump this post with a couple questions. i am eagerly awaiting heading back to nyc to listen to the romas and other audio goodies at @rhapsody’s awesome audio lab. i had a couple questions about the romas:

1. in the absolute sound write up where the guy listened to roma triode, bays, and alsyvox he mentioned that the roma triodes have alnico drivers - are these for the bass or midrange or both? do the roma’s also have alnico drivers or is that exclusively on the triodes? i searched around on diesis’ website but was unable to verify this information

2. a year or so back i listened to the new alexx v and xvx at innovative audio in nyc. the alexx v were 6 days out of the crate and paired with spectral. i did not really enjoy the sound (it was too sharp for me) but i admit that a lot of that could be burn in and spectral and that room in particular (years before that i heard the alexia 2’s with dag in that room and i didn’t understand the fuss). the xvx room is different and with dag’s i was blown away. the sound was big, bouncy - not as transparent or refined as my magicos but FUN (happy to elaborate on what i mean here if that helps. on my phone i have some short video clips too that i can post later). it made me realize what a big speaker can do especially with more modern pop, hip hop, and electronic recordings. I will go back to listen to their alexx v’s because i’m not sure if it was the dag’s, the room, or the alnico midrange on the xvx that was bringing such life to the sound (probably a bit of all three) - maybe it was jut the sheer size of that speaker…curious what you think as someone who has owned wilsons in the past. i don’t necessarily want dag amps either but i would be using high powered solid state: maybe a devialet, maybe pilium or ch or soulution. at rhapsody i would like to hear them with pilium or devialet.

3. on a personal level, i have never owned wilsons but it was my demo of the sabrina in a different room at innovative (with vtl amps) that really put me on my speaker journey. i was just curious what a $20k speaker sounded like and it was the first speaker i clicked with. maybe if i had just bought it i would not be this far down the rabbit hole but it’s been an entertaining and enlightening journey. the xvx is far out of my budget - i could probably swing the alexx v if i sold some stuff.

i’m lusting after that big dynamic sound that brings a wallop. for my musical tastes and new room i would probably need a sub - something i’m apprehensive about given that i have never set up a system with one in recent times. I believe i listened to the caput mundi or ludos (my memory is escaping me) with the diesis integrated around the time i chose my m2’s but what we listen for changes and maybe the open baffle just wasn’t resonating with me (pun intended!). i have enjoyed semi open baffle speakers like zellaton but also noticed a lack of low end but have never heard their bigger speakers. wondering if you could offer any insight here…listening will be the best way to learn but you surely understand the audio itch one gets and the excitement around a potential new speaker.

i am more than happy with my magico m2’s and having not been in my nyc home for 4 months, i miss them dearly. i love their transparency, their dynamic range, soundstaging, and that beautifuly midrange. the symphonic line amp brings alot of bass to the table so they go low enough for me but that xvx sound haunts me. i like the idea of having two different set ups with 2 different topologies but maybe magico is just the sound i prefer…only way to find out

 

[Skanda]

P.s. as someone who consumes frequently and unabashedly, I know exactly what you mean and the running joke about my system amongst my friends is that it sounds just like how music sounds in that state

 

[Ron Resnick]

2. a year or so back i listened to the new alexx v and xvx at innovative audio in nyc. the alexx v were 6 days out of the crate and paired with spectral. i did not really enjoy the sound (it was too sharp for me) but i admit that a lot of that could be burn in and spectral and that room in particular (years before that i heard the alexia 2’s with dag in that room and i didn’t understand the fuss). the xvx room is different and with dag’s i was blown away. the sound was big, bouncy - not as transparent or refined as my magicos but FUN (happy to elaborate on what i mean here if that helps. on my phone i have some short video clips too that i can post later). it made me realize what a big speaker can do especially with more modern pop, hip hop, and electronic recordings. I will go back to listen to their alexx v’s because i’m not sure if it was the dag’s, the room, or the alnico midrange on the xvx that was bringing such life to the sound (probably a bit of all three) - maybe it was jut the sheer size of that speaker…curious what you think as someone who has owned wilsons in the past. i don’t necessarily want dag amps either but i would be using high powered solid state: maybe a devialet, maybe pilium or ch or soulution. at rhapsody i would like to hear them with pilium or devialet.

The XVX haunts me too!

The Alexx V inherited the same midrange driver that is in the XVX. I’ve heard the XVX five or six times in one friend’s system, and I have heard the Alexx V about a dozen times in another friend’s system.

I think the Alexx V and the XVX have a conceptually similar and qualitatively similar sound. The Alexx V goes in the same directions as the XVX, just not quite as far. If they sounded conceptually different or qualitatively different to you, then it must’ve been the difference in the associated electronics or in the rooms, or both.

As somebody who historically has not cared for Wilson speakers for different reasons over time, the XVX probably is my favorite cone speaker today (over, even, the Arrakis and the Rockport Lyra; I have not heard the Gryphon Kodo outside of a show). My favorite amp pairing on the XVX and the Alexx V is high-power tubes, such as VTL Siegfried II.

If someone likes equally a wide variety of genres of music, then I think that calls for what I call a “general purpose” speaker, and I think the Alexx V and the XVX would make you happy.

 

[Rhapsody]

@Bobvin i wanted to bump this post with a couple questions. i am eagerly awaiting heading back to nyc to listen to the romas and other audio goodies at @rhapsody’s awesome audio lab. i had a couple questions about the romas:

1. in the absolute sound write up where the guy listened to roma triode, bays, and alsyvox he mentioned that the roma triodes have alnico drivers - are these for the bass or midrange or both? do the roma’s also have alnico drivers or is that exclusively on the triodes? i searched around on diesis’ website but was unable to verify this information

2. a year or so back i listened to the new alexx v and xvx at innovative audio in nyc. the alexx v were 6 days out of the crate and paired with spectral. i did not really enjoy the sound (it was too sharp for me) but i admit that a lot of that could be burn in and spectral and that room in particular (years before that i heard the alexia 2’s with dag in that room and i didn’t understand the fuss). the xvx room is different and with dag’s i was blown away. the sound was big, bouncy - not as transparent or refined as my magicos but FUN (happy to elaborate on what i mean here if that helps. on my phone i have some short video clips too that i can post later). it made me realize what a big speaker can do especially with more modern pop, hip hop, and electronic recordings. I will go back to listen to their alexx v’s because i’m not sure if it was the dag’s, the room, or the alnico midrange on the xvx that was bringing such life to the sound (probably a bit of all three) - maybe it was jut the sheer size of that speaker…curious what you think as someone who has owned wilsons in the past. i don’t necessarily want dag amps either but i would be using high powered solid state: maybe a devialet, maybe pilium or ch or soulution. at rhapsody i would like to hear them with pilium or devialet.

3. on a personal level, i have never owned wilsons but it was my demo of the sabrina in a different room at innovative (with vtl amps) that really put me on my speaker journey. i was just curious what a $20k speaker sounded like and it was the first speaker i clicked with. maybe if i had just bought it i would not be this far down the rabbit hole but it’s been an entertaining and enlightening journey. the xvx is far out of my budget - i could probably swing the alexx v if i sold some stuff.

i’m lusting after that big dynamic sound that brings a wallop. for my musical tastes and new room i would probably need a sub - something i’m apprehensive about given that i have never set up a system with one in recent times. I believe i listened to the caput mundi or ludos (my memory is escaping me) with the diesis integrated around the time i chose my m2’s but what we listen for changes and maybe the open baffle just wasn’t resonating with me (pun intended!). i have enjoyed semi open baffle speakers like zellaton but also noticed a lack of low end but have never heard their bigger speakers. wondering if you could offer any insight here…listening will be the best way to learn but you surely understand the audio itch one gets and the excitement around a potential new speaker.

i am more than happy with my magico m2’s and having not been in my nyc home for 4 months, i miss them dearly. i love their transparency, their dynamic range, soundstaging, and that beautifuly midrange. the symphonic line amp brings alot of bass to the table so they go low enough for me but that xvx sound haunts me. i like the idea of having two different set ups with 2 different topologies but maybe magico is just the sound i prefer…only way to find out

Both Woofers of the Roma Triode are with the Alnico 5 Magnet with 24 ohm Silver Coil, while Roma has both Ferrite woofers.

 

[Skanda]

The XVX haunts me too!

The Alexx V inherited the same midrange driver that is in the XVX. I’ve heard the XVX five or six times in one friend’s system, and I have heard the Alexx V about a dozen times in another friend’s system.

I think the Alexx V and the XVX have a conceptually similar and qualitatively similar sound. The Alexx V goes in the same directions as the XVX, just not quite as far. If they sounded conceptually different or qualitatively different to you, then it must’ve been the difference in the associated electronics or in the rooms, or both.

As somebody who historically has not cared for Wilson speakers for different reasons over time, the XVX probably is my favorite cone speaker today (over, even, the Arrakis and the Rockport Lyra; I have not heard the Gryphon Kodo outside of a show). My favorite amp pairing on the XVX and the Alexx V is high-power tubes, such as VTL Siegfried II.

If someone likes equally a wide variety of genres of music, then I think that calls for what I call a “general purpose” speaker, and I think the Alexx V and the XVX would make you happy.

Thank you Ron - eager to hear what a fully broken in pair of Alexx V's can do.

@Rhapsody thanks for clarifying! I've read some of your posts about Roma vs RT. Is the alnico an optional extra on the Roma? Do you run the RT with anything other than kondo? I know they are built/geared for use with kondo but wondering what tangible benefits the alnico brings compares to the ferrite in Roma - mostly trying to understand if what I loved from the xvx sound is coming in large part from alnicos or if that's a relatively mild factor. Thanks in advance and looking forward to hanging out soon!

 

[Rhapsody]

Thank you Ron - eager to hear what a fully broken in pair of Alexx V's can do.

@Rhapsody thanks for clarifying! I've read some of your posts about Roma vs RT. Is the alnico an optional extra on the Roma? Do you run the RT with anything other than kondo? I know they are built/geared for use with kondo but wondering what tangible benefits the alnico brings compares to the ferrite in Roma - mostly trying to understand if what I loved from the xvx sound is coming in large part from alnicos or if that's a relatively mild factor.

The Alnico is only available on the Roma Triode. I use the Diesis integrated, the Pilium separates, a Pilium integrated, VAC 200iQ monos or a 30 Watt Esoteric Class A integrated on the Roma or Roma Triode. I like the sound with all of the mentioned electronics on any of the Diesis. ymmv.

When I listen to the Roma I don't feel like I am missing anything vs the RT. Although then when you listen to the RT, which is in a different room with different electronics/cables, which invalidates any real comparison, it's pretty special sounding.

It's good you are coming to hear for yourself. It's impossible to explain, best to listen and know for your self.

 

[LL21]

The XVX haunts me too!

The Alexx V inherited the same midrange driver that is in the XVX. I’ve heard the XVX five or six times in one friend’s system, and I have heard the Alexx V about a dozen times in another friend’s system.

I think the Alexx V and the XVX have a conceptually similar and qualitatively similar sound. The Alexx V goes in the same directions as the XVX, just not quite as far. If they sounded conceptually different or qualitatively different to you, then it must’ve been the difference in the associated electronics or in the rooms, or both.

As somebody who historically has not cared for Wilson speakers for different reasons over time, the XVX probably is my favorite cone speaker today (over, even, the Arrakis and the Rockport Lyra; I have not heard the Gryphon Kodo outside of a show). My favorite amp pairing on the XVX and the Alexx V is high-power tubes, such as VTL Siegfried II.

If someone likes equally a wide variety of genres of music, then I think that calls for what I call a “general purpose” speaker, and I think the Alexx V and the XVX would make you happy.

I have now heard the XVX with the Robert Koda K15EX Super Ground and the K160 Monos (also with TA Opus cables...Magnus Opus to be exact)...driven by a Vivaldi full-stack Apex. I am still turning what I heard over in my mind. Quite impressive. In addition to no doubt the design, build, etc...I think the change in cones reflects something about how Darryl wishes to present sound (3 midrange drivers and 2 smaller woofer cones in a deeper cabinet). My impression was a clear scale difference in the lower midrange on up, just a lot more volume, power, scale in balance with the bass than the XLFs. It was hard to walk away with a better feel for the bass without spending a lot more time with it.

Overall, a very well and (I think) a differently balanced speaker. Again, still turning what I heard over in my mind.

 

[Duke LeJeune]

View attachment 97560

BEAUTIFUL looking woofer, but... how is it held in place? I don't see fasteners in any of the visible mounting screw holes in the woofer's flange.

 

[Artnet]

but... how is it held in place?

I was curios too but think its the image that needs a 90 degree turn. Its just gravity holding it ?

 

[Rhapsody]

BEAUTIFUL looking woofer, but... how is it held in place? I don't see fasteners in any of the visible mounting screw holes in the woofer's flange.

Italian Magic

 

[Rhapsody]

I was curios too but think its the image that needs a 90 degree turn. Its just gravity holding it ?

Correctumundo. Just checking to see if everyone was awake