Burn-in

[FrantzM]

Hi

Audio is one hobby where we enthusiasts, regularly (and too often) dive into arcana to explain things that are often simple. I am seeing it right here and I have seen it quite a number of times in other forums. I do not believe that cables and wires need break-in... Their physical properties do not change on signal passing through them ... and regardless of wherever we dive to fish for explanations , those are easily verifiable facts. Now I know that some capacitors, electrolytic, for example require some amaount of "forming" exactly for the electrolyte to form... We audiophile seem to have extrapolated this to Teflon but as far as I know there is no physical change in the capacitors after the "break-in" period.
Break in is one of these issues. Whenever proof is asked of material change during the break in period .. The "the too small to measure but , please believe your ears"-argument comes up or anecdotal references are made ...no solid, concrete proofs. ... The discussion becomes a profession of faiths, of argumentation and of tautologies..yet no concrete proofs is ever presented...
So the question remains if the physical properties of the component have not changed ... What would its sound change? Is it too difficult to simply admit that our ear/brain has adapted to the sound of the component?
Electromechanical items , transducers: microphones, speakers, cartridges may need some break in it, IMO, I can see the material property changing with play .. I had a bizarre experience with a NEW Magnepan MG 3? .. r. With strong bass it would simply flap... Changing amplifier did not alter the behavior .. Tubes or SS, big bass whack, equaled flap... A few weeks of playing and the flap went away, never to return. Subsequent Magnepans that I owned , all purchased used, never exhibited this behavior...


Frantz

 

[MylesBAstor]

Hi

Audio is one hobby where we enthusiasts, regularly (and too often) dive into arcana to explain things that are often simple. I am seeing it right here and I have seen it quite a number of times in other forums. I do not believe that cables and wires need break-in... Their physical properties do not change on signal passing through them ... and regardless of wherever we dive to fish for explanations , those are easily verifiable facts. Now I know that some capacitors, electrolytic, for example require some amaount of "forming" exactly for the electrolyte to form... We audiophile seem to have extrapolated this to Teflon but as far as I know there is no physical change in the capacitors after the "break-in" period.
Break in is one of these issues. Whenever proof is asked of material change during the break in period .. The "the too small to measure but , please believe your ears"-argument comes up or anecdotal references are made ...no solid, concrete proofs. ... The discussion becomes a profession of faiths, of argumentation and of tautologies..yet no concrete proofs is ever presented...
So the question remains if the physical properties of the component have not changed ... What would its sound change? Is it too difficult to simply admit that our ear/brain has adapted to the sound of the component?
Electromechanical items , transducers: microphones, speakers, cartridges may need some break in it, IMO, I can see the material property changing with play .. I had a bizarre experience with a NEW Magnepan MG 3? .. r. With strong bass it would simply flap... Changing amplifier did not alter the behavior .. Tubes or SS, big bass whack, equaled flap... A few weeks of playing and the flap went away, never to return. Subsequent Magnepans that I owned , all purchased used, never exhibited this behavior...


Frantz

What have we extrapolated to Teflon?

 

[FrantzM]

That Teflon capacitors also need break-in. On first use, and on re-use after extended storage, electrolytic capacitors need to be "formed".. THis is achieved by applying a DC voltage on the Cpa to form the film of Oxide (usually Aluminum) ... This is not a procedure that is needed with Teflon caps ... Simple question: Does the Teflon material change when subjected to voltage the way the electrolyte in electrolytic capacitors do?

Frantz

 

[vinylphilemag]

That Teflon capacitors also need break-in. On first use, and on re-use after extended storage, electrolytic capacitors need to be "formed".. THis is achieved by applying a DC voltage on the Cpa to form the film of Oxide (usually Aluminum) ... This is not a procedure that is needed with Teflon caps ... Simple question: Does the Teflon material change when subjected to voltage the way the electrolyte in electrolytic capacitors do?

Frantz

Myles did explain (at least partially) how Teflon's charactisics change over time, in post 6 of this thread.

 

[FrantzM]

Myles did explain (at least partially) how Teflon's charactisics change over time, in post 6 of this thread.

His was what he remembered from a post in AA.. I would have preferred more substantiated proofs.

Frantz

 

[MylesBAstor]

His was what he remembered from a post in AA.. I would have preferred more substantiated proofs.

Frantz

No what I posted wasn't what I remembered. I copied and saved the post verbatim on my computer.

 

[FrantzM]

No what I posted wasn't what I remembered. I copied and saved the post verbatim on my computer.

Still not a proof...

Frantz

 

[MylesBAstor]

Still not a proof...

Frantz

Well I guess then the poster just made it up to sell more capacitors.

 

[FrantzM]

HI

Your guess is as good as mine... It remains hard to construct this as proof that teflon capacitors change with time... not sufficient
Frantz

 

[Monkeyboy]

I'm no electrician and know nothing about teflon caps or anything else in regard to the parts inside the equipment, but I will never forget when I bought my present setup. I bought the Ayre K5-xe amp and the V5-xe pre amp and I was shocked at how canned the music sounded. I started getting really bummed out about having bought this stuff. Then the music started changing. At first it just sounded odd with diminished, muddy bass and it was too bright. After about a week it started sounding better and within a few days it opened up and I was in music heaven! I'm not sure how much of it was due to the amps burning in or the new interconnects, but the end result was exactly what I had purchased in the first place.

I just don't go for that "if it sounds bad out of the box it is bad" bit. My own experience has taught me otherwise. I'm glad I never complained about it to the store owner. I just let things take their course and my life is all the better for it.

 

[microstrip]

Teflon caps have some unique characteristics. Electrically they are about as perfect as can be, but Teflon has the mechanical properties of a liquid and therefore flows slowly when under pressure.

Myles,
Yesterday I have drilled and cut some Teflon spacers for my Forsell head shell - happily it does not have the properties of a liquid. Are you sure that the author of the original posting used these terms?

Otherwise both of us have to start checking if our preamplifers do not risk flooding - they have large volumes of Teflon!

 

[vinylphilemag]

Myles,
Yesterday I have drilled and cut some Teflon spacers for my Forsell head shell - happily it does not have the properties of a liquid. Are you sure that the author of the original posting used these terms?

Otherwise both of us have to start checking if our preamplifers do not risk flooding - they have large volumes of Teflon!

Not all liquids flow easily at room temperature. For example, glass is a (super cooled) liquid at room temperature.

 

[LesAuber]

Not all liquids flow easily at room temperature. For example, glass is a (super cooled) liquid at room temperature.

And yet glass still flows, however very slowly. Don't recall what the rate is and to lazy to search at the moment. Didn't know teflon fell into the same class.

One question that kept coming up in reading through this thread is why anyone would bother buying a component that they didn't know how it would sound once it was run in? All I'd want from the store is assurance that I could still return it as defective after whatever period they indicated it would take to run it in. One reason I still maintain a relationship with B&M stores. Hearing the piece to see if it even gets out of the starting gate for me followed by an in home trial. I hate shopping but for the price range of components where run in may be an issue it's worth the hassle.

Whether break in exists outside of the mechanical realm I can't really say. Maybe I just got used to hearing the piece. If it does I doubt that it matters on many components. Would you really expect a mass market anything to have detailed enough sound to be able to hear subtle changes over time?

 

[FrantzM]

And yet glass still flows, however very slowly. Don't recall what the rate is and to lazy to search at the moment. Didn't know teflon fell into the same class.

One question that kept coming up in reading through this thread is why anyone would bother buying a component that they didn't know how it would sound once it was run in? All I'd want from the store is assurance that I could still return it as defective after whatever period they indicated it would take to run it in. One reason I still maintain a relationship with B&M stores. Hearing the piece to see if it even gets out of the starting gate for me followed by an in home trial. I hate shopping but for the price range of components where run in may be an issue it's worth the hassle.

Whether break in exists outside of the mechanical realm I can't really say. Maybe I just got used to hearing the piece. If it does I doubt that it matters on many components. Would you really expect a mass market anything to have detailed enough sound to be able to hear subtle changes over time?

Hi

I need to understand what we mean by

And yet glass still flows, however very slowly

Also I disagree with this

Would you really expect a mass market anything to have detailed enough sound to be able to hear subtle changes over time?

.. Mass MArket are subject to the same laws of physics ...
For now , let me say I am on the fence... I believe that what we attribute solely to "burn-in" is a little of both ..
1) becoming accustomed to the sound of the equipment
2) and maybe, just maybe change in electrical properties of some of its parts ..

I don't believe in cable break-ins nor in cable directionality

Frantz

 

[amirm]

I don't believe in cable break-ins nor in cable directionality,

On the later, there is a technical difference in such cables. They usually have two grounds, and at one end they are connected together and at the other, they are not. This is said to reduce noise.

 

[FrantzM]

On the later, there is a technical difference in such cables. They usually have two grounds, and at one end they are connected together and at the other, they are not. This is said to reduce noise.

I agree and in that light, the statement might have been too broad ... I was however talking about a different kind of "directionality": I have seen cables for which the manufacturers claims that once a direction is chosen not to reverse it because (plug any pseudo-scientific babble here) ...

Frantz

 

[naturephoto1]

I agree and in that light, the statement might have been too broad ... I was however talking about a different kind of "directionality": I have seen cables for which the manufacturers claims that once a direction is chosen not to reverse it because (plug any pseudo-scientific babble here) ...

Frantz

Hi Frantz,

Whether you believe directionality or not for cables, I think that some of the markings are for direction so that the flow is always consist. That is so that if the cables have been moved, if there is in fact an affect for orientation that the flow will always be the same and so that you do not need to recondition the cable to a different flow direction if they are switched. This would apply to Coax, speaker cables (if they use the same termination), RCA ICs, etc. Obviously this would not apply to Balanced XLR cables since the orientation is always determined by the ends themselves.

Rich

 

[microstrip]

Hi
Quoting FranzM
I don't believe in cable break-ins nor in cable directionality
Frantz

But you believe that cables sound different, although we can not measure technical differences between them?

 

[LesAuber]

Hi

I need to understand what we mean by

Also I disagree with this .. Mass MArket are subject to the same laws of physics ...
For now , let me say I am on the fence... I believe that what we attribute solely to "burn-in" is a little of both ..
1) becoming accustomed to the sound of the equipment
2) and maybe, just maybe change in electrical properties of some of its parts ..

I don't believe in cable break-ins nor in cable directionality

Frantz

Most people think of glass as a solid, super cooled liquid or not. If you measured the thickness of the windows in your house at top and bottom now and then a hundred years later you would find that the top is very slightly thinner and the bottom a little thicker as the glass flows down. Someone has actually done this on very old buildings as I recall and verifyied it. For more than that try google. If teflon does the same thing I can imagine it might move a bit under DC voltage.

I did not state that mass market gear wasn't subjected to the same laws of physics as any other piece. Don't spin what I say. Given the low fi resolution and sound qualities of the stuff sold by big box stores would you really expect to be able to hear changes as subtle as burn in is if it exists? I wouldn't. Not saying that the same changes wouldn't occur in the circuitry. Just that it's not likely to be audible.

 

[RUR]

If you measured the thickness of the windows in your house at top and bottom now and then a hundred years later you would find that the top is very slightly thinner and the bottom a little thicker as the glass flows down.

Les, that phenomenon, found in windows from medieval buildings, has been shown to be an artifact of how the glass was made at the time, and not due to flow. Further, the amount of glass flow ascribed to those windows would, by calculation, require billions of years.

Ken