Battery Power

Kingrex

Well-Known Member
Feb 3, 2019
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Some people know I am an electrician who went down a rabbit hole with optimizing power to feed audio system. I always keep my ear to the floor on whats new and working.

A few years back Stromtank graded the scene with their stand alone battery power supplies. Lots of people sunk lots of $$$$ into the very high priced, but admittedly well built models. The vast majority of feedback has been people find the device a benefit on source components. Mixed on amplifiers.

I have questioned many times what peoples perceptions would be if they had their electrical infrastructure set up properly using good wire and as much copper in the electrical distribution as.possible.

Reciently one of my clients who optimized their infrastructure under my guidence reached out and started sharing his experience with a stand alone battery power supply. Basically a UPS on wheels. In the last few years quite a few of these devices have come on the market by a multitude of manufacturer. They are generally designed with 4 to 6 x 15/20 amp outlets on the frame of the unit to plug directly into. As well as a 30A 120 volt to 50A 120 volt outlet that is meant to plug into a transfer switch on the wall. This transfer switch distributes the load to critical devices used during a blackout. Most all these devices are built upon a platform that allows some amount of expanded battery capacity to be linked to the primary head unit.

Most all these units are using pure sine wave filters. I have no idea the amplifiers to boost the signal.

The client that reached out to me purchased Goal Zero (GZ)1500 watt unit. Over a few weeks and recient prodding by myself he has tried a variety of devices to it. As an overall impact, he finds the unit to level out any difference between daytime listening when his power is dirty and the sound veilied, to night listening when its clear and alive. Overall he says he is achieving the higheat level of playback he has ever achieved to date.
There are some oddities to what he experience. One is he finds its "too much" with all his front end into the GZ. Its too silky. If he keeps one device like his preamp or server direct to the wall, the dynamics and impact are improved.
This client has a Gryphone Essence. After a lot of prodding by myself saying its safe, he agreed to plug the Gryphon into the unit. Low and behold, he actually prefers the Gryphon feed by the GZ.
A couple clarifications here. This person and other trying these units are generally plugging a filter device into a outlet on the GZ. Some are altering a power cord and plugging into the 30A outlet and feeding a filter such as Puritan or Shunyata.

Also and very important, all these units have fans on the inverter. These fans seem to cycle on and.off intermittently with front end.gear plugged in. With an amp, they run constantly. I asked if a 3 sided box would mute the sound. He seemed to think it was pretty loud. As a consequence he keeps the amp to the wall. All digital equipment in the GZ and the amp and preamp to the wall.

Next level.
Online chatter seems to say these all in one units are good. But achieving a higher level is a stand alone inverter with lithium batteries tethered to one end and an output to something like a filter or Isolation transformer. One branded Giandel 5000 watt inverter has a following. The Giandel seems to perform better than the GZ and other entry level stand alone units. I don't know anyone has compared the Giandel to a higher level model GZ or other brands. Using a stand alone inverter means you have to develop your own jumper cables and connecting wires.

This does leave open the question of where would a Studer or Victron inverter take things. These pro level units are extremely well built and have extremely low harmonic distortion. Well below what comes from the street. Sat in a adjacent room, one could have unlimited battery reaerves as well as massive current potential far excesing anything a Stromtank could deliver. And all you would have is duplex in your room.

I think its time.serious audiophile beging exploring battery power supplies. This can be approached in a variety of ways and a variety of budgets.

Lastly, had anyone tried one of these devices. What models? What were the results?
Thanks
Rex
Kingrex
 
...thank you for the interesting post, Rex. Soon the battery powered Taiko Olympus will ship. I like the concept of "clean" power, if batteries can really deliver on that promise. It will be interesting to see where this goes.
 
An interesting thread which I look forward to follow.

For my own particular scenario I would be interested in suggestions on what I could use in my system. My DarTZeel preamp already runs on battery power. My DarTZeel amplifier is plugged directly into the wall where a dedicated line was run 20 years ago. I am happy with it staying there.

I would be interested in a smaller battery powered unit which would exclusively power my dCS RossinI APEX and Rossini Clock. That's all - or perhaps also the Linn Klimax Radikal switched mode power supply which runs the motor on my LP12. My requirements are not that great and I would be interested in suggestions.
 
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This may be better. Lower distortion than the industrial unit. Not fully sure without calling.

If I'm reading this correctly, with 240 volt split phase out, it could be wired to a copper loadcenter to keep the equipment out of the room and only duplex in the wall. But really, if I was going that route, I would use a Victron with 20,000 watts output.
 
Some people know I am an electrician who went down a rabbit hole with optimizing power to feed audio system. I always keep my ear to the floor on whats new and working.

A few years back Stromtank graded the scene with their stand alone battery power supplies. Lots of people sunk lots of $$$$ into the very high priced, but admittedly well built models. The vast majority of feedback has been people find the device a benefit on source components. Mixed on amplifiers.

I have questioned many times what peoples perceptions would be if they had their electrical infrastructure set up properly using good wire and as much copper in the electrical distribution as.possible.

Reciently one of my clients who optimized their infrastructure under my guidence reached out and started sharing his experience with a stand alone battery power supply. Basically a UPS on wheels. In the last few years quite a few of these devices have come on the market by a multitude of manufacturer. They are generally designed with 4 to 6 x 15/20 amp outlets on the frame of the unit to plug directly into. As well as a 30A 120 volt to 50A 120 volt outlet that is meant to plug into a transfer switch on the wall. This transfer switch distributes the load to critical devices used during a blackout. Most all these devices are built upon a platform that allows some amount of expanded battery capacity to be linked to the primary head unit.

Most all these units are using pure sine wave filters. I have no idea the amplifiers to boost the signal.

The client that reached out to me purchased Goal Zero (GZ)1500 watt unit. Over a few weeks and recient prodding by myself he has tried a variety of devices to it. As an overall impact, he finds the unit to level out any difference between daytime listening when his power is dirty and the sound veilied, to night listening when its clear and alive. Overall he says he is achieving the higheat level of playback he has ever achieved to date.
There are some oddities to what he experience. One is he finds its "too much" with all his front end into the GZ. Its too silky. If he keeps one device like his preamp or server direct to the wall, the dynamics and impact are improved.
This client has a Gryphone Essence. After a lot of prodding by myself saying its safe, he agreed to plug the Gryphon into the unit. Low and behold, he actually prefers the Gryphon feed by the GZ.
A couple clarifications here. This person and other trying these units are generally plugging a filter device into a outlet on the GZ. Some are altering a power cord and plugging into the 30A outlet and feeding a filter such as Puritan or Shunyata.

Also and very important, all these units have fans on the inverter. These fans seem to cycle on and.off intermittently with front end.gear plugged in. With an amp, they run constantly. I asked if a 3 sided box would mute the sound. He seemed to think it was pretty loud. As a consequence he keeps the amp to the wall. All digital equipment in the GZ and the amp and preamp to the wall.

Next level.
Online chatter seems to say these all in one units are good. But achieving a higher level is a stand alone inverter with lithium batteries tethered to one end and an output to something like a filter or Isolation transformer. One branded Giandel 5000 watt inverter has a following. The Giandel seems to perform better than the GZ and other entry level stand alone units. I don't know anyone has compared the Giandel to a higher level model GZ or other brands. Using a stand alone inverter means you have to develop your own jumper cables and connecting wires.

This does leave open the question of where would a Studer or Victron inverter take things. These pro level units are extremely well built and have extremely low harmonic distortion. Well below what comes from the street. Sat in a adjacent room, one could have unlimited battery reaerves as well as massive current potential far excesing anything a Stromtank could deliver. And all you would have is duplex in your room.

I think its time.serious audiophile beging exploring battery power supplies. This can be approached in a variety of ways and a variety of budgets.

Lastly, had anyone tried one of these devices. What models? What were the results?
Thanks
Rex
Kingrex
A "UPS on wheels" won't do what you want. A UPS runs on and outputs utility power until there is an outage. Then, and only, then it switches to battery power until the batteries run out, the generator starts or utility power is restored. While it is running on utility power a small amount of power is bled off to keep the batteries charged using the UPS's internal charger. So you need a battery bank, a way to keep it charged and an inverter if you need AC power for "clean" battery power.
 
@Kingrex Why would you use a 20,000VA Victron? The biggest I could find is the 48v Quattro which is 15,000VA, dual toroids and 70kg. Isn’t it overkill or what’s the thought process?

If you pull a relatively small load on such a big inverter, isn’t it going to be adversarial to SQ?
This may be better. Lower distortion than the industrial unit. Not fully sure without calling.

If I'm reading this correctly, with 240 volt split phase out, it could be wired to a copper loadcenter to keep the equipment out of the room and only duplex in the wall. But really, if I was going that route, I would use a Victron with 20,000 watts output.
 
A "UPS on wheels" won't do what you want. A UPS runs on and outputs utility power until there is an outage. Then, and only, then it switches to battery power until the batteries run out, the generator starts or utility power is restored. While it is running on utility power a small amount of power is bled off to keep the batteries charged using the UPS's internal charger. So you need a battery bank, a way to keep it charged and an inverter if you need AC power for "clean" battery power.
You unplug the charger from the wall.
 
@Kingrex Why would you use a 20,000VA Victron? The biggest I could find is the 48v Quattro which is 15,000VA, dual toroids and 70kg. Isn’t it overkill or what’s the thought process?

If you pull a relatively small load on such a big inverter, isn’t it going to be adversarial to SQ?
I think your right. I'm still digging around on whats what. Look like they are single phase out and you teather up to 6 together to make split or 3 phase power, as well as more ampacity overall.
 
OK, I used the Giandel 12v 5000w inverter with < 3% THD + a 460ah LFP battery + a Puritan 156 for a few years.

I just moved to a 48v architecture setup…

Ask me anything… it’s VERY good.
 
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@kswanson27
It turns of the charger and forces the system to use the battery only. Otherwise, yes, most UPS are passing wall current until the power goes out. Unplugging the unit simulates the power going out.
 
OK, I used the Giandel 12v 5000w inverter with < 3% THD + a 460ah LFP battery + a Puritan 156 for a few years.

I just moved to a 48v architecture setup…

Ask me anything… it’s VERY good.
Did you do a lot of posting on Audiogon forum about Giandel.
What are you using now. 48 volt sounds like your going to a much larger inverter. Do you still use a filter. I was hoping to some day try a 5000vA unit and use the 30A output direct to a Torus RM20.
 
@kswanson27
It turns of the charger and forces the system to use the battery only. Otherwise, yes, most UPS are passing wall current until the power goes out. Unplugging the unit simulates the power going out.
Uh, OK. UPS battery run times are all over the map, from a minute or less to, in rare cases several hours. The more batteries the longer the run time for a given load. But if you disconnect the charger from the batteries and run out the batteries you won't have music for a while, maybe quite a while. You need constant charging or a charging system that is set to charge the batteries when you're not listening or your load is very low. This is not a good application for a typical UPS.
 
Uh, OK. UPS battery run times are all over the map, from a minute or less to, in rare cases several hours. The more batteries the longer the run time for a given load. But if you disconnect the charger from the batteries and run out the batteries you won't have music for a while, maybe quite a while. You need constant charging or a charging system that is set to charge the batteries when you're not listening or your load is very low. This is not a good application for a typical UPS.
I'm confident you don't understand the concept. Hificlips can maybe set you straight if your willing to open your mind to what he's doing. And many others.
 
I'm confident you don't understand the concept. Hificlips can maybe set you straight if your willing to open your mind to what he's doing. And many others.
Rex, I was merely referring to your comment, which seemed in passing, that this was like a UPS on wheels. No big deal but it's not as I explained.
I think the concept of battery power for audio gear is terrific. I was fortunate to be able to attend Steve's demo of the Taiko Olympus and Lampi Horizon 360 this past Saturday and was very impressed. I believe a good part of the excellence I heard was due to the Olympus' battery power.
It's probably fair to say my mind isn't as open as it was forty or so years ago but it's open enough to understand the concepts we're talking about.
 
Did you do a lot of posting on Audiogon forum about Giandel.
What are you using now. 48 volt sounds like your going to a much larger inverter. Do you still use a filter. I was hoping to some day try a 5000vA unit and use the 30A output direct to a Torus RM20.
I didn’t actually post on Audiogon, but I know exactly what you mean… I extensively studied the posts you refer to, and basically replicated the setup that was discussed in those threads ie 12v / Giandel based. I did a lot of tweaks until I was satisfied with the voicing. Take away is that everything matters, including things like proper torquing, connectors... I also used Kendrick sound for inspiration since they also use a 12v battery/inverter setup.

But I moved on from 12v. 48v is more efficient, with MUCH better sound.

My current setup is based on a single 48v battery rack (not multiple units connected with cables, I learnt through experience that battery cables should be avoided) of 15.5kWh. It’s using EV Lifepo4 batteries. I’m using a Victron 48V 5000VA low frequency inverter that has < 3% THD and weighs 30kg, with dual toroids. Considering upgrading to 10KVA. The sine wave is absolutely rock solid under heavy load e.g. 2000w heat gun for example on the oscilloscope. It’s off the grid. I still use a Puritan 156 to filter the inverter noise. I’m experimenting with large gauge inverter cables ie 3/0 AWG or even 3/0 AWG double run. Way overkill for 48v so we’ll see. The entire setup is getting close to 200 kg.

It sounds Uber good. The sound is always the same since I’m completely off the grid when I play music. I can choose the exact AC output voltage, which then remains locked… another benefit.

I’m still learning, and I have a lot of questions myself.
 
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I didn’t actually post on Audiogon, but I know exactly what you mean… I extensively studied the posts you refer to, and basically replicated the setup that was discussed in those threads ie 12v / Giandel based. I did a lot of tweaks until I was satisfied with the voicing. Take aways is that everything matters, including things like proper torquing. I also used Kendrick sound for inspiration since they also use a 12v battery/inverter setup.

But I moved on from 12v. 48v is more efficient, with MUCH better sound.

My current setup is based on a single 48v battery rack (not multiple units connected with cables, I learnt through experience that battery cables should be avoided) of 15.5kWh. It’s using newly developed EV truck Lifepo4 batteries that have 2C to 3C discharge rate, grade A. I’m using a Victron 48V Multiplus v1 5000VA low frequency inverter that has < 3% THD and weights 30kg, with dual toroids. Considering upgrading to 10KVA. The sine wave is absolutely rock solid under heavy load e.g. 2000w heat gun for example on the oscilloscope. It’s off the grid. I still use a Puritan 156 to filter the inverter noise. I’m experimenting with large gauge inverter cables ie 3/0 AWG or even 3/0 AWG double run. Way overkill for 48v so we’ll see.

It sounds Uber good. The sound is always the same since I’m completely off the grid. I can choose the exact AC output voltage, another benefit.

I’m still learning, and I have a lot of questions myself.
Thats what I'm taking about. Good setup.
What do you mean no battery cables. You don't like the soft high strand count wire. Do you find stiffer, low strand THHN Style wire works better. Hard to work with.
Have you tried polishing the tin off the footers and in the holes of the compression lugs. Deoxit the terminations and compressions.

Have you done any work to your electrical service at home to compare quality wall power to battery power.
Do you put your amps and everything through the battery supply?
Have you tried parallel supplies. The Victron for the amps and the Giandel for the front end?
 
Rex, I was merely referring to your comment, which seemed in passing, that this was like a UPS on wheels. No big deal but it's not as I explained.
I think the concept of battery power for audio gear is terrific. I was fortunate to be able to attend Steve's demo of the Taiko Olympus and Lampi Horizon 360 this past Saturday and was very impressed. I believe a good part of the excellence I heard was due to the Olympus' battery power.
It's probably fair to say my mind isn't as open as it was forty or so years ago but it's open enough to understand the concepts we're talking about.

This is a UPS on wheels. Its like many others available today. You can place it behind your rack, plug it in to charge the batteries and unplug it when playing with many hours of runtime.
You can also land it in your garage connected to a transfer switch where it simply passes power through, then transfers to battery in 20ms when the power drops out. Many of these devices come with accessory battery storge options to extend run time out to days. As well as.solar inputs.
 
I love the Deoxit suggestion. I was thinking about it actually and yes I believe it will absolutely make a difference, because one of the lesson I learnt is that connections are ULTRA important. So yes I’ll take the feedback. I’m always learning.

Yes I compared what I call my DYI Strom (I think it’s > 3 times the capacitance of the 60K s5000HP and I’m absolutely confident the cells are better as well.. and arguably the inverter too) vs the wall, including the best power conditioners from top brands and IMHO (and the owner as well, multiple systems involved) and the DIY Strom is always better in every way I can think of.

Yes I tried parallel batteries and that’s the part I learnt: when you use cables between batteries, the SQ degrades. It’s better to have a big battery bank with only copper busbars between cells… and that’s it.

I didn’t do Giandel + Victron because it’s 2 different voltages and takes too much space. Also the Giandel is way worse than the 48v setup. Not even close. Totally different league. But I did try a commercial all in one (digital) + Giandel (analogue), and IMHO Giandel alone was better.

Yes I do power my amplifiers on the DIY Strom. Yes I compared to the wall for amps even with Airlink balanced isolation transformer + Puritan (and Isotek too) and the DYI Strom is always better.

I couldn’t follow well your question on cables… do you recommend any in particular? Super interested. I ordered OFC from the US back then but never found a good dielectric or even OCC at that gauge. Or anything that great TBH.

I know it’s going to be controversial, but once you hear the 48v setup… it’s so strong, so stable, so peaceful and with really low noise and really low distortion. It’s like the components are completely saturated with really great power and they completely unleash, creating strong vibrational energy into the room.
 
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