Audiophile Fuses

[Progisus]

Well at least people are now considering the safety aspect of certified equipment. I do know of what I speak as I was the liaison between our factory and CSA. As we also shipped to the USA we were also cCSAus certified which is the equivalent to UL. We built custom electrical equipment from 1 amp to 2000 amps. There are extensive rules on the use of fuses and circuit breakers and if not strictly adhered to there is immediate loss of certification. As to the sound difference, I have no idea but if it is certified and one feels it sounds better then go for it. Prog On!

 

[Geoffkait]

Most high end fuses are not certified UL, with some exceptions like The Japanese fancy fuse, which I’ve owned, but the best sounding ones are not UL certified, like Audio Magic, which I’ve owned, not sure about HiFi Tuning or SR, those are the top sellers. I kind of doubt a fuse containing a liquid or beeswax (Audio Magic) will get UL certified.

 

[Kingrex]

Fist sized cables are not necessary

Nor is 10 awg branch wire. But it is highly audible to convert a 20A 120 volt branch circuit from 12 awg to10 awg.

fuses and CB's have different jobs and operate differently. They are not interchangeable.

Please elaborate. A CB is a thermal device as well as a megnetic device. It is designed to trip just like a fuse based upon thermal rise due to high sustained cureent. A CB is also a magnetic device and designed to trip in half a cycle of the sine wave during a high magnetic rise such as a shorted circuit to phase of ground.
My understanding is the fuse went away in your house and commercial buildings because a CB provides the same functionality and safety and can be reset. Fuses can not be reset. Larger molded case circuit breakers also have adjustable LSI. Long, short and instantaneous adjustability allowing for better coordination wirh smaller downstream breakers. What this means is the magnetic rise from a bolted short on a 20A branch won't throw the 5000A main, or the 2000A feeder to the distribution panel or the 200A main in the subpanel. It will only throw the 20A branch.

 

[Kingrex]

Like I briefly noted earlier, I have listened to a 20A fuse VS a 20A CB. It was an unfamiliar system to me. And the room was not a designed room for audio. It was a very nice system in a living room type setting. The owner loved the fuse. I very much heard the difference, but could not say one was better than the other. Just very different.

My point is that a fuse is a simple straight wire. A CB is more complex. The current has to pass through multiple welded contacts and differing metals in a CB. I can only assume something is being induced into the circuit by the sensing elements in a CB. I'm sure the same is true with a fuse when you choke a wire that has to 12 awg or larger on a 20A circuit down to maybe 24 awg. Something must change. How much of what with either, I don't know. But they are audibly different. Its easy to hear.

I believe a fuse and CB are interchangeable.

I do not believe it is code compliant to use a swiss digital fuse box as your bypassing built in safety features with a aftermarket product. But that does not mean the SDF is not a safe product to use. It just means your voiding the manufacturer warranty.

 

[Republicoftexas69]

Like I briefly noted earlier, I have listened to a 20A fuse VS a 20A CB. It was an unfamiliar system to me. And the room was not a designed room for audio. It was a very nice system in a living room type setting. The owner loved the fuse. I very much heard the difference, but could not say one was better than the other. Just very different.

My point is that a fuse is a simple straight wire. A CB is more complex. The current has to pass through multiple welded contacts and differing metals in a CB. I can only assume something is being induced into the circuit by the sensing elements in a CB. I'm sure the same is true with a fuse when you choke a wire that has to 12 awg or larger on a 20A circuit down to maybe 24 awg. Something must change. How much of what with either, I don't know. But they are audibly different. Its easy to hear.

I believe a fuse and CB are interchangeable.

I do not believe it is code compliant to use a swiss digital fuse box as your bypassing built in safety features with a aftermarket product. But that does not mean the SDF is not a safe product to use. It just means your voiding the manufacturer warranty.

As one does whenever inserting one of the many non validated audiophile fuses. ssfas refuses to accept that neither products are TuV or UL listed the fuse or the SDFB. Nor will he accept that the CB and a fuse in particular magnetic CB do the same job.

In general, circuit breakers have more capabilities, keep you safer and are more versatile. While fuses can have live parts exposed, circuit breakers are dead front, so you are not exposed to energized parts. If needed, the enclosed unit also keeps an arc contained - keeping you safe. Fuses can arc if replaced under power.

Circuit breakers can reduce downtime because they are resettable. In addition, they can be tested to make sure they are working properly. To truly test a fuse, it would need to be destroyed in the process.

Circuit breakers also come in handy by having both magnetic and thermal protections (fuses only have thermal), an on/off switch and ground fault protection. Lastly, circuit breakers provide better protection for three-phase loads. With a breaker, all three phases trip together, where if a fuse blows, the other two fuses can remain intact which may result in damaged equipment (or single phasing)

 

[kennyb123]

Manufacturers never have anything positive to say about fuse upgrades because they never heard of them.

Yes, but also manufacturers are smart to stay away from topics that have little upside for them. Decisions about fuses, supports, power cords and other accessories are left to the customers so that the manufacturer can focus on supporting what they themselves manufacture. The last thing they want to do is have field to endless asks about this fuse or that fuse or this cord or that cord - especially since some of these choices can degrade performance or worse. It's astonishing to me that someone would seeks input from a party who has no hands-on experience with a particular accessory while ignoring the hundreds of posts here from those here who do.

 

[ssfas]

As one does whenever inserting one of the many non validated audiophile fuses. ssfas refuses to accept that neither products are TuV or UL listed the fuse or the SDFB. Nor will he accept that the CB and a fuse in particular magnetic CB do the same job.

In general, circuit breakers have more capabilities, keep you safer and are more versatile. While fuses can have live parts exposed, circuit breakers are dead front, so you are not exposed to energized parts. If needed, the enclosed unit also keeps an arc contained - keeping you safe. Fuses can arc if replaced under power.

Circuit breakers can reduce downtime because they are resettable. In addition, they can be tested to make sure they are working properly. To truly test a fuse, it would need to be destroyed in the process.

Circuit breakers also come in handy by having both magnetic and thermal protections (fuses only have thermal), an on/off switch and ground fault protection. Lastly, circuit breakers provide better protection for three-phase loads. With a breaker, all three phases trip together, where if a fuse blows, the other two fuses can remain intact which may result in damaged equipment (or single phasing)

TuV and UL do not apply in the UK, I think USA only. We have EU regulations and British Standards.

I've tried Synergistic Research and a couple of other fuses that were not certified. Fuses designed to protect a device don't need to be certified as far as I am aware, but many brands do get them certified.

Here we use fuses and circuit breakers. I have a totally standard installation, there are 3 fuses and 2 circuit breakers before the first component. Here circuit breakers and fuses do different jobs. The CB's do ring/spur circuit safety and the fuses protect cables coming off the ring.

MCBs have IEC defined trip curves. There are 5 types. Fuses have all sorts of average time current curves. MCBs trip much faster than fuses so it is far more likely to have a breaker trip than a fuse blow.

Here we have a system of certification that is extremely rigorous - every cable, socket, breaker, etc - took two days to certify my house and it's not that big. Has to be redone every 5 years. One of the key tests is earth loop impedance - to make sure the breakers trip, and fast enough, under fault conditions.

The critical 3A, 5A and 13A plug safety fuses we use have to be mass produced and tested to extremely high tolerances. Certification is so expensive than no audiophile manufacturers can afford to do it. The audiophile versions tend to be certified Bussmann fuses with gold-plated end caps. Littelfuse make their own medical/audio version, costs about $10 each.

https://m.littelfuse.com/media?resourcetype=datasheets&itemid=493b9e95-5244-491f-9f3f-b6f22059b246&filename=littelfuse-fuse-285-datasheet

As far as I am aware, Swiss Fuse have not published the trip curve / average time current curve of their product. Can they be reset?

With regard to the benefits of audiophile fuses, it isn't reduced resistance or heat. Bussmann, Littelfuse and others publish their data, and it's very similar. A 2A fuse on a 250v circuit will drop about 0.15V at full load and dissipate 0.2% of power (i.e. heat) at 1.5 times full load.

For over 10 years Synergistic Research, the brand I tried, have claimed that their patented fuse technology is something called UEF. I've not been able to find out what it is, according to their website it's something to do with electrons doing a Mexican Wave.

Nor is 10 awg branch wire. But it is highly audible to convert a 20A 120 volt branch circuit from 12 awg to10 awg.

I don't understand AWG. I installed a 26A 250V rated cable. I don't know the thickness. What is probably more relevant is the power draw. My amplifier has 350w maximum consumption. I was looking at a Gryphon until I saw it drew 1,900w max. The cable is short (8m), has a drain to earth, no other cables nearby and buried in a tube under 5 inches of concrete.

 

[Republicoftexas69]

TuV and UL do not apply in the UK, I think USA only. We have EU regulations and British Standards.

I've tried Synergistic Research and a couple of other fuses that were not certified. Fuses designed to protect a device don't need to be certified as far as I am aware, but many brands do get them certified.

Here we use fuses and circuit breakers. I have a totally standard installation, there are 3 fuses and 2 circuit breakers before the first component. Here circuit breakers and fuses do different jobs. The CB's do ring/spur circuit safety and the fuses protect cables coming off the ring.

MCBs have IEC defined trip curves. There are 5 types. Fuses have all sorts of average time current curves. MCBs trip much faster than fuses so it is far more likely to have a breaker trip than a fuse blow.

Here we have a system of certification that is extremely rigorous - every cable, socket, breaker, etc - took two days to certify my house and it's not that big. Has to be redone every 5 years. One of the key tests is earth loop impedance - to make sure the breakers trip, and fast enough, under fault conditions.

The critical 3A, 5A and 13A plug safety fuses we use have to be mass produced and tested to extremely high tolerances. Certification is so expensive than no audiophile manufacturers can afford to do it. The audiophile versions tend to be certified Bussmann fuses with gold-plated end caps. Littelfuse make their own medical/audio version, costs about $10 each.

https://m.littelfuse.com/media?resourcetype=datasheets&itemid=493b9e95-5244-491f-9f3f-b6f22059b246&filename=littelfuse-fuse-285-datasheet

As far as I am aware, Swiss Fuse have not published the trip curve / average time current curve of their product. Can they be reset?

With regard to the benefits of audiophile fuses, it isn't reduced resistance or heat. Bussmann, Littelfuse and others publish their data, and it's very similar. A 2A fuse on a 250v circuit will drop about 0.15V at full load and dissipate 0.2% of power (i.e. heat) at 1.5 times full load.

For over 10 years Synergistic Research, the brand I tried, have claimed that their patented fuse technology is something called UEF. I've not been able to find out what it is, according to their website it's something to do with electrons doing a Mexican Wave.

I don't understand AWG. I installed a 26A 250V rated cable. I don't know the thickness. What is probably more relevant is the power draw. My amplifier has 350w maximum consumption. I was looking at a Gryphon until I saw it drew 1,900w max. The cable is short (8m), has a drain to earth, no other cables nearby and buried in a tube under 5 inches of concrete.

Okay, time to move along. You do you and I will do what we do here in the USA. We have codes too just like the UK And each state has their regulation. As I have built every house I have owned I have never had to worry about substandard construction, electrical or plumbing.

 

[ssfas]

Okay, time to move along. You do you and I will do what we do here in the USA. We have codes too just like the UK And each state has their regulation. As I have built every house I have owned I have never had to worry about substandard construction, electrical or plumbing.

Many countries are very different. I just spent about 3 hours on the phone with Bank of America. They don't have email and wanted me to send them documents by fax! I didn't know fax still existed. And they only had a toll-free fax number that would not work even if I found someone with a fax machine (a museum?).

Federal systems like the USA, Germany and Switzerland complicate matters, but the UK and EU generally have consistent regulations, and there are of course IEC standards. Most of the electrical components in my consumer units are made by Hager, a €2billion family-owned business with manufacturing and research facilities in Germany, France and the UK. We have national standards for building control, electrical and gas. If you do a home build here, you won't get the building signed off as legal without an electrical certificate completed by a certified electrical test engineer, all of which is done on a national online register.

 

[Republicoftexas69]

Many countries are very different. I just spent about 3 hours on the phone with Bank of America. They don't have email and wanted me to send them documents by fax! I didn't know fax still existed. And they only had a toll-free fax number that would not work even if I found someone with a fax machine (a museum?).

Federal systems like the USA, Germany and Switzerland complicate matters, but the UK and EU generally have consistent regulations, and there are of course IEC standards. Most of the electrical components in my consumer units are made by Hager, a €2billion family-owned business with manufacturing and research facilities in Germany, France and the UK. We have national standards for building control, electrical and gas. If you do a home build here, you won't get the building signed off as legal without an electrical certificate completed by a certified electrical test engineer, all of which is done on a national online register.

 

[Geoffkait]

Audiophiles are a breed apart inasmuch as they often do things that go against the code, as it were. Some examples below. Faint heart ne’er won fair maiden.

- remove the steel (magnetic) door from fuse box.
- remove the top of a preamp or CD player.
- replace the fuse on a (low power) CD or preamp with a copper slug.
- cover all microchips in the CD player with RF shielding material.
- wrap the transformer with mu metal.
- treat tube sockets with contact enhancer.
- treat wall power plug duplex with contact enhancer.
- treat HDMI cable connectors with contact enhancer.
- apply holographic foils to printed circuit boards, tubes, etc.
- loosen all screws holding down the transformer.
- loosen or remove screws holding down printed circuit boards.

 

[Argonaut]

Audiophiles are a breed apart inasmuch as they often do things that go against the code, as it were. Some examples below. Faint heart ne’er won fair maiden.

- remove the steel (magnetic) door from fuse box.
- remove the top of a preamp or CD player.
- replace the fuse on a (low power) CD or preamp with a copper slug.
- cover all microchips in the CD player with RF shielding material.
- wrap the transformer with mu metal.
- treat tube sockets with contact enhancer.
- treat wall power plug duplex with contact enhancer.
- treat HDMI cable connectors with contact enhancer.
- apply holographic foils to printed circuit boards, tubes, etc.
- loosen all screws holding down the transformer.
- loosen or remove screws holding down printed circuit boards.

You missed one out Geoff , Vital for Natural Sound apparently :

 

[Geoffkait]

Thanks! I always wondered what a pseudo skeptic cat looked like.

 

[Republicoftexas69]

You missed one out Geoff , Vital for Natural Sound apparently :

View attachment 125816

Charming.

 

[Kingrex]

Many countries are very different. I just spent about 3 hours on the phone with Bank of America. They don't have email and wanted me to send them documents by fax! I didn't know fax still existed. And they only had a toll-free fax number that would not work even if I found someone with a fax machine (a museum?).

Federal systems like the USA, Germany and Switzerland complicate matters, but the UK and EU generally have consistent regulations, and there are of course IEC standards. Most of the electrical components in my consumer units are made by Hager, a €2billion family-owned business with manufacturing and research facilities in Germany, France and the UK. We have national standards for building control, electrical and gas. If you do a home build here, you won't get the building signed off as legal without an electrical certificate completed by a certified electrical test engineer, all of which is done on a national online register.

Just use a glass fuse. No one wants you awake at night worrying about insurance.

 

[Geoffkait]

I advise if you’re going with a stock fuse, ceramic fuses generally don’t vibrate as much as glass AND glass allows RF into the foodchain. Big no no. Also even stock fuses are directional, so chances are good you might get a free boost in sq just by flipping your fuse.

 

[Republicoftexas69]

Just use a glass fuse. No one wants you awake at night worrying about insurance.

Sure is a worry wart and long winded for sure.

 

[Progisus]

You guys crack me up.

 

[Kingrex]

I advise if you’re going with a stock fuse, ceramic fuses generally don’t vibrate as much as glass AND glass allows RF into the foodchain. Big no no. Also even stock fuses are directional, so chances are good you might get a free boost in sq just by flipping your fuse.

Neither Ceramic or glass block RF. And there is the 40 feet of NM-B as well as the miles of utility wire gathering RF. I don't have any shielded power cords. So there is that too.

I don't know how much ceramic stops vibration. Packing the internals of a fuse might.

Does ceramic vibrate in sympathy with the 60 hert sine less tha glass. Not sure.

 

[Geoffkait]

Kingrex, I take it you agree that stock fuses are directional. So we agree on that.

Also, check out HiFi tunings Supreme fuse, with ceramic body.

from HIFI TUNING web page,

The HiFi Tuning Supreme Fuses utilize a 99% pure silver and 1% pure gold alloy, tip-to-tip... from caps to burn wire. They also employ a specially developed ceramic casing, with an additional anti-resonance tube, as well as quantum and cryogenic treatments.

HiFi Tuning is based out of Germany, and the HiFi Tuning fuses have won many awards and received great reviews from the audiophile community aaround the world.

Amongst all the great fuse choices available from many brands the HiFi Tuning Supreme fuses I consider to be a universally solid pick for any audiophile that is looking for a musical presentation, without risk of suffering from listening fatigue over longer listening sessions. The HiFi Tuning Supremes strike a nice balance between not being too bright, nor overly syrupy.

For best performance, the HiFi Supreme fuses should be installed one way, listened to, and then reversed the other way to determine best sonic orientation