Audio Note UK vs Audio Japan Sonic Differences

[Richard Austen]

LOL.


Then, how do you fit Ongaku in that claim? It is the most famous product in Kondo line, still in production and SET.

Why do you not read what I wrote --- "mostly" focused? I even put "mostly" in quotes so that people could see the word Mostly - do I need to bold it underline it and put it in hot pink so you can see it?

On their website - they list 4 power amplifiers and one integrated amp (5 amplifiers). 4/5 are parallel single-ended or push-pull amps. The ONLY one that is not those is the Ongaku. Thus "Mostly" focused on parallel or push-pull amps. Or 80% of their amplifiers are Parallel or Push Pull.

 

[Richard Austen]

That's right, loudspeakers that fluctuate greatly in impedance are poison for amplifiers without global feed back. You can listen to it and you may like it, but it has nothing to do with linear frequency response. sometimes it is simply better to insert a calculated RCL element for an impedance peak into the xover. Or choose a speaker that has the straightest possible impedance curve between 200hz-10khz.
The areas above and below are rather uncritical for the ear.
P.S
That's why a pushpull amp can sometimes sound significantly better than a set amp because of the feedback

Well, that's true SET amps tend to be power-challenged but IMO speakers that need a push-pull amplifier are not speakers I have tended to like very much. Albeit I have not auditioned the top Living Voice speakers. I have only tried the MTM

Without knowing the price of them I would not comment.

Edit: I looked up the price points and the LV is $12,000-$28,000 US from what I have read so there must be a few different versions with upgraded parts? Unfortunately, I don't know which version I heard. And I always listen to speakers in three locations with three different sets of equipment and only one of those minimum three locations can be an audio show. I like that they are pretty high-sensitive so can be run with SET amps and they'll fit in a Hong Kong apartment. Albeit I don't like the white colour - fortunately they have several choices.

 

[mtemur]

Why do you not read what I wrote --- "mostly" focused? I even put "mostly" in quotes so that people could see the word Mostly - do I need to bold it underline it and put it in hot pink so you can see it?

I read “mostly” and very well understood the meaning of it but after that when you wrote “all” in the same sentence “mostly became meaningless. Please read last part of your sentence:

and dumped all their Non-Parallel Single Ended SET amps

Doesn’t it mean they don’t produce any SET amplifier? Doesn’t “all” means “everything”? What should I or any person understand from this sentence?

 

[DasguteOhr]

Well, that's true SET amps tend to be power-challenged but IMO speakers that need a push-pull amplifier are not speakers I have tended to like very much. Albeit I have not auditioned the top Living Voice speakers. I have only tried the MTM

Without knowing the price of them I would not comment.

Edit: I looked up the price points and the LV is $12,000-$28,000 US from what I have read so there must be a few different versions with upgraded parts? Unfortunately, I don't know which version I heard. And I always listen to speakers in three locations with three different sets of equipment and only one of those minimum three locations can be an audio show. I like that they are pretty high-sensitive so can be run with SET amps and they'll fit in a Hong Kong apartment. Albeit I don't like the white colour - fortunately they have several choices.

Thats are gorgeous speakers the living voice ibx- rw (intern xover) or obx -rw model (extern xover.)
The disadvantage obx models you need more speaker cables, minimum 3 cables per side.
You can influence the sound more there, positively or negatively
This is not a power problem but an impedance problem, regardless of whether you have a 300b in the amplifier or 3-4 parallel per channel in the set amp(no feedback), that doesn't change the problem. read a book on the topic.

 

[Richard Austen]

Thats are gorgeous speakers the living voice ibx- rw (intern xover) or obx -rw model (extern xover.)
The disadvantage obx models you need more speaker cables, minimum 3 cables per side.
You can influence the sound more there, positively or negatively
This is not a power problem but an impedance problem, regardless of whether you have a 300b in the amplifier or 3-4 parallel per channel in the set amp(no feedback), that doesn't change the problem. read a book on the topic.

Most good SET amps have an 8-ohm tap and a 4-ohm tap.

I looked up the Living Voice R80 and

Sensitivity:	92dB (2.83v @1m)
Nominal Impedance:	6 Ohms
Minimum Impedance:	4.5 Ohms
Loading:	Reflex port to rear of cabinet.
Frequency Response:	25Hz–20kHz
Power Handling:	100 Watts

Auditorium R25 anniversary (most in this series are speced similarly)

Sensitivity:	94dB
Nominal Impedance:	6 Ohms
Loading:	Reflex port to rear of cabinet.
Frequency Response:	35Hz–22.5kHz
Power Handling:	100 Watts

They don't list the minimum impedance of the other speakers but assuming they are in the ballpark - a SET amp even from the 8-ohm tap will have no problem driving 4.5 ohms. And definitely, no problem using the 4 ohm tap.

Don't believe me?

From the words of Kevin Scott himself

"none of the Auditorium Series require more than an 8 watt amplifier – even on very large scale music. It’s perfectly okay to use a more powerful amplifier, but the power isn’t strictly needed. In such a room, even with an 8 watt amplifier there will be no shortage of scale or dynamic range. There are many owners of Auditorium Series speakers with examples of 2A3 & 300B amplifiers which typically produce 7-10 watts." https://www.livingvoice.co.uk/interview-kevin-scott-r25a.html

 

[DasguteOhr]

Most good SET amps have an 8-ohm tap and a 4-ohm tap.

I looked up the Living Voice R80 and

Sensitivity:	92dB (2.83v @1m)
Nominal Impedance:	6 Ohms
Minimum Impedance:	4.5 Ohms
Loading:	Reflex port to rear of cabinet.
Frequency Response:	25Hz–20kHz
Power Handling:	100 Watts

Auditorium R25 anniversary (most in this series are speced similarly)

Sensitivity:	94dB
Nominal Impedance:	6 Ohms
Loading:	Reflex port to rear of cabinet.
Frequency Response:	35Hz–22.5kHz
Power Handling:	100 Watts

They don't list the minimum impedance of the other speakers but assuming they are in the ballpark - a SET amp even from the 8-ohm tap will have no problem driving 4.5 ohms. And definitely, no problem using the 4 ohm tap.

Don't believe me?

From the words of Kevin Scott himself

"none of the Auditorium Series require more than an 8 watt amplifier – even on very large scale music. It’s perfectly okay to use a more powerful amplifier, but the power isn’t strictly needed. In such a room, even with an 8 watt amplifier there will be no shortage of scale or dynamic range. There are many owners of Auditorium Series speakers with examples of 2A3 & 300B amplifiers which typically produce 7-10 watts." https://www.livingvoice.co.uk/interview-kevin-scott-r25a.html

You didn't understand the fundamental problem. Living voice speakers work well with set amp because they don't have large impedance fluctuations. They sound excellent but if you want to hear louder a single ended 300b is the wrong choice. then it is a power problem.

 

[Bonesy Jonesy]

Well, that's true SET amps tend to be power-challenged but IMO speakers that need a push-pull amplifier are not speakers I have tended to like very much. Albeit I have not auditioned the top Living Voice speakers. I have only tried the MTM

Without knowing the price of them I would not comment.

Edit: I looked up the price points and the LV is $12,000-$28,000 US from what I have read so there must be a few different versions with upgraded parts? Unfortunately, I don't know which version I heard. And I always listen to speakers in three locations with three different sets of equipment and only one of those minimum three locations can be an audio show. I like that they are pretty high-sensitive so can be run with SET amps and they'll fit in a Hong Kong apartment. Albeit I don't like the white colour - fortunately they have several choices.

The Living Voice 'Auditorium' range of speakers you were mentioning as per 'Living Voice' website ;

Auditorium Range | Reflex MTM Loudspeakers | Living Voice

The elegantly proportioned cabinets of the Auditorium Series conceal a meticulous and obsessive approach to the complex problems of loudspeaker design.

www.livingvoice.co.uk

I heard the fantastic 'Living Voice OBX-RW4' speakers connected to a fantastic electronics chain of 'SJS Electroacoustics' equipment which included a 300B SET amp for over 3 hours last year at a UK hifi show. Best in show sound to my ears.

Living Voice also now have a new and larger speaker called the R80 series;

R80 | Reflex MTM Loudspeakers | Living Voice

The R80 is a sophisticated 2-way speaker combining the visceral thrill & lyricism of our Vox Olympian horn with the musical coherence of the Auditorium Series.

www.livingvoice.co.uk

I heard the fantastic 'Living Voice R80' speakers connected to a fantastic electronics chain of 'SJS Electroacoustics' equipment which included two (mono) 300B SET amps operating for each speaker also for over 3 hours this year at a UK hifi show. Also one of the best if not the best in show sound to my ears.
Also great reviews and reports from this years Munich show for these R80 speakers too (and also connected to 'SJS Electroacoustics' electronic equipment).

 

[Amir]

View attachment 120435

Nice setup

I love both Kondo and Living Voice.

 

[Bonesy Jonesy]

Most good SET amps have an 8-ohm tap and a 4-ohm tap.

I looked up the Living Voice R80 and

Sensitivity:	92dB (2.83v @1m)
Nominal Impedance:	6 Ohms
Minimum Impedance:	4.5 Ohms
Loading:	Reflex port to rear of cabinet.
Frequency Response:	25Hz–20kHz
Power Handling:	100 Watts

Auditorium R25 anniversary (most in this series are speced similarly)

Sensitivity:	94dB
Nominal Impedance:	6 Ohms
Loading:	Reflex port to rear of cabinet.
Frequency Response:	35Hz–22.5kHz
Power Handling:	100 Watts

They don't list the minimum impedance of the other speakers but assuming they are in the ballpark - a SET amp even from the 8-ohm tap will have no problem driving 4.5 ohms. And definitely, no problem using the 4 ohm tap.

Don't believe me?

From the words of Kevin Scott himself

"none of the Auditorium Series require more than an 8 watt amplifier – even on very large scale music. It’s perfectly okay to use a more powerful amplifier, but the power isn’t strictly needed. In such a room, even with an 8 watt amplifier there will be no shortage of scale or dynamic range. There are many owners of Auditorium Series speakers with examples of 2A3 & 300B amplifiers which typically produce 7-10 watts." https://www.livingvoice.co.uk/interview-kevin-scott-r25a.html

Kevin (Definitive Audio & Living Voice) specifically designed and built the 'Auditorium' and 'R80' range of speakers specifically for low power output SET amps.

When I heard the 'OBX-RW4' speakers last year, they were being driven by 'SJS Electroacoustics' 'Model 5' 8W per channel output 300B SET amps.
The sound was absolutely amazing to my ears even though the UK HiFi Show's room was quite small !

When I heard the R80' speakers this year, they were being driven by two of (mono blocked) 'SJS Electroacoustics' 'Model 10' 20W per channel output 300B SET amps (from SJS Instagram page:- 'SJS Model 10 monoblock valve amplifiers, 20W per channel from parallel single ended 300B valves, using a 7N7 input stage and a third 300B as the driver stage.') .
The sound was absolutely stunning to my ears even though the UK HIFi Show's room although quite large was not ideal to get the best out of these speakers !

 

[morricab]

Well, that's true SET amps tend to be power-challenged but IMO speakers that need a push-pull amplifier are not speakers I have tended to like very much. Albeit I have not auditioned the top Living Voice speakers. I have only tried the MTM

Without knowing the price of them I would not comment.

Edit: I looked up the price points and the LV is $12,000-$28,000 US from what I have read so there must be a few different versions with upgraded parts? Unfortunately, I don't know which version I heard. And I always listen to speakers in three locations with three different sets of equipment and only one of those minimum three locations can be an audio show. I like that they are pretty high-sensitive so can be run with SET amps and they'll fit in a Hong Kong apartment. Albeit I don't like the white colour - fortunately they have several choices.

The upper models in this line of LV speakers (The OB-X RW4, is the top one now I think), is 94dB sensitivity and works VERY well with as little as 8 watts of SET power. They demoed them in Munich in 2022 with the SJS 300B amp and it was one of the better sounds at the show. For someone with limited space and refined taste this is probably one of the better choices for speakers out there.

 

[DasguteOhr]

Nice setup

I love both Kondo and Living Voice.

Thanks,I'll tell my friend Peter, he owns it. He has optimized performance over the years. The Metronome CD player fits Kondo+Living Voice perfectly. A real leap in quality by switching to Synergistic research power cable and active grounding block + their SR fuses.

 

[morricab]

Thanks,I'll tell my friend Peter, he owns it. He has optimized performance over the years. The Metronome CD player fits Kondo+Living Voice perfectly. A real leap in quality by switching to Synergistic research power cable and active grounding block + their SR fuses.

Your thoughts on your friend's system?

 

[mtemur]

The upper models in this line of LV speakers (The OB-X RW4, is the top one now I think), is 94dB sensitivity and works VERY well with as little as 8 watts of SET power. They demoed them in Munich in 2022 with the SJS 300B amp and it was one of the better sounds at the show.

I thought the same, sound in LV room was great in Munich 2022.

 

[morricab]

I thought the same, sound in LV room was great in Munich 2022.

I actually liked it better than with the R80 this year. The new speaker is less sensitive/harder to drive and I think the amps were not quite up to it in that large room. I mainly heard stress on louder passages that I haven't heard from LV in the past.

 

[DasguteOhr]

Your thoughts on your friend's system?

First things first, you just immerse yourself in the music, nothing feels wrong. There is no part the bass, mids, heights that stands out says I'm here. The unity in the reproduction of music impresses me every time I listen. The tuning of mains, RCA and speakercable have not made this worse, they have increased the level of detail and precision. One of the best systems I know in a relatively small space of 16 square meters

 

[Bonesy Jonesy]

The upper models in this line of LV speakers (The OB-X RW4, is the top one now I think), is 94dB sensitivity and works VERY well with as little as 8 watts of SET power. They demoed them in Munich in 2022 with the SJS 300B amp and it was one of the better sounds at the show. For someone with limited space and refined taste this is probably one of the better choices for speakers out there.

Yes 'morricab', the OBX-RW4 is the top of the range in the Auditorium range of speakers.

If you ever get the chance, audition the new Living Voice R80 speakers with SJS 300B amp(s) (and ideally also with a SJS Phono Stage and Pre-Amp). The R80's nicely sit between the Auditorium range and the TOTL Vox Olympian Horn Speaker range.
The R80's are an amazing and very musical sounding speaker with the SJS electronics chain (just like the OBX-RW4 speakers with a full SJS electronics chain) with the R80's sound signature like the OBX-RW4's but on steroids i.e. much bigger sound and more of everything across the full frequency spectrum in particular the fantastic bass slam etc.
The R80's (like the OBX-RW4's) sound fantastic with any genre of music (I heard them and the OBX-RW4's both for over 3 hours straight with music genres from pop to classical to jazz to electronica to R&B).

 

[Bonesy Jonesy]

I actually liked it better than with the R80 this year. The new speaker is less sensitive/harder to drive and I think the amps were not quite up to it in that large room. I mainly heard stress on louder passages that I haven't heard from LV in the past.

I heard the R80's this year at a UK Hifi Show (Ascot Racecourse) with two newly launched SJS Model 10 300B SET Amps mono blocked giving each R80 speaker 20W of power (see my today's previous post above for further details).
Definitely no lack of power to the R80's to my ears, in fact quite the opposite !

 

[Bonesy Jonesy]

Yes 'morricab', the OBX-RW4 is the top of the range in the Auditorium range of speakers.

If you ever get the chance, audition the new Living Voice R80 speakers with SJS 300B amp(s) (and ideally also with a SJS Phono Stage and Pre-Amp). The R80's nicely sit between the Auditorium range and the TOTL Vox Olympian Horn Speaker range.
The R80's are an amazing and very musical sounding speaker with the SJS electronics chain (just like the OBX-RW4 speakers with a full SJS electronics chain) with the R80's sound signature like the OBX-RW4's but on steroids i.e. much bigger sound and more of everything across the full frequency spectrum in particular the fantastic bass slam etc.
The R80's (like the OBX-RW4's) sound fantastic with any genre of music (I heard them and the OBX-RW4's both for over 3 hours straight with music genres from pop to classical to jazz to electronica to R&B).

Ooops apologies 'morricab', just seen and read your last post this morning that you have already heard the R80's at Munich this year, albeit I think with only one SJS Model 5 300B SET Amp.

If get to come over to the UK any time soon, I would 100% recommend you visit Kevin and Lynn at Definitive Audio / Living Voice in Nottinghamshire to hear the R80's with SJS (Simon's) new fantastic Model 10 mono block 300B SET Amps.

 

[Juiced]

You didn't understand the fundamental problem. Living voice speakers work well with set amp because they don't have large impedance fluctuations. They sound excellent but if you want to hear louder a single ended 300b is the wrong choice. then it is a power problem. View attachment 120435

Nice setup

i'm with also with Overture + LV (ibx-rw4),
Love them !

 

[tarquineous]

Take this post from me with the caveat that Rhapsody is the US Kondo distributor, so of course I am totally biased.

It's your opinion which is respected as your opinion.

What horns was Kondo playing with and at what show may I ask are you referring to from six years ago? It was not in the US as Kondo did not show with horns in the last six years at any US show.

In 2019-2022 Kondo, at Munich, played with Kaiser, which are non- horn speakers. Kondo used B/W 801s in their listening room to test amplification driving capability. Kondo showed for 2-3 years prior to 2019 with their own Biyura speakers, which were non-horn speakers.

It's fine if you like ANUK, and like their rooms at shows, but to denigrate Kondo without details about the room that you mention from six years ago and to insinuate that the Kondo room that you heard is the worst sound/room that you ever heard sounds ultra suspicious.

Let's talk about specifics about this room. What show was it? What were the speakers and let's discuss in detail.

Sorry for the late reply, but the room I saw was at the show in Los Angeles. IMO the room was too small for horn speakers, and just rotely putting silver cable in a system because you happen to make them does not guarantee good sound or synergy. I'm sure they have adjusted since then for shows, and each product they make may be excellent, but that particular performance along with 50 percent of the other showrooms, did not sound very good at all. Great sound is achieved by careful selection of components, not just throwing a bunch of products all made by one company. But that's what lots of exhibitors do.