Audio Alto AA R101 FR Single-driver loudspeaker

morricab

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First off the MA driver used in that has 2 more BL than the Fostex.

Secondly if the driver moved faster it would be changing the frequency.

I’m not interested in unpacking everything wrong with your post. I know why you think what you do, and I can tell you it’s other factors that make the sound you think is made that way (“fast”).
Now you confuse frequency response and sensitivity? A driver can do 20khz with high or low sensitivity...they are both vibrating at the same speed; however the force generated to make a bigger wave (thus higher SPL) is clearly not the same. The only way to generate more force is acceleration (F =MA) or mass. Since the Fostex has a light cone and very short throw (it is really more of a mid/high than full range) it must have a huge acceleration to get 93db/watt. This basic physics and applies here. Besides as I said most of these drivers reach so high through cone geometry and breakup and dust cap design not because it is hard to oscillate at 20khz.

You have many tweeters with middle sensitivity vs. a compression driver with at least 10db higher sensitivity. Main difference? Magnet strength and higher BL. Force (ie. Sound PRESSURE) is a function of acceleration.
 

morricab

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Jeffrey, Mono&Stereo did a review on this speaker and it got an award. It’s absolutely worth consideration for a main speaker. From what can be discerned, their implementation is rather smart.

I would say I’m defending the speaker from silly accusations derived from misunderstandings about wattage/efficiency/sensitivity. One should hear it to believe it though. The raw drivers are special to start, but need a smart person to integrate them properly - which was done by Audio Alto, to the tune of an award. And I’ll note that Audio Alto recommends a max room size, so yes they understand the speaker isn’t for a dance party in an airport hanger.
You were only defending your own faulty understanding of physics.
I never said one bad word about the speaker, in fact I said it had a good reputation and a good FR. I haven’t heard it so I didn’t comment on SQ. Have you heard it? A mini and stereo award is nice but there are many award winning products I wouldn’t care to own.
 

Folsom

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Now you confuse frequency response and sensitivity? A driver can do 20khz with high or low sensitivity...they are both vibrating at the same speed; however the force generated to make a bigger wave (thus higher SPL) is clearly not the same. The only way to generate more force is acceleration (F =MA) or mass. Since the Fostex has a light cone and very short throw (it is really more of a mid/high than full range) it must have a huge acceleration to get 93db/watt. This basic physics and applies here. Besides as I said most of these drivers reach so high through cone geometry and breakup and dust cap design not because it is hard to oscillate at 20khz.

You have many tweeters with middle sensitivity vs. a compression driver with at least 10db higher sensitivity. Main difference? Magnet strength and higher BL. Force (ie. Sound PRESSURE) is a function of acceleration.

.... If you have two drivers of a relative same size, and you are trying to listen to both at let's say 95db, they will have the same speed of acceleration. F=MA but that is within a window, and that window is shaped by other driver properties too.

If you change the acceleration you either A. changed the SPL if it's within the window, or B. changed the frequency because the window changed. You're talking about not changing the window now, but that is not what you previously were saying where you're claiming the Fostex actually moves faster all together. Both drivers of a similar size (Fostex is actually a little smaller, but relatively there isn't much difference) so the actual speed capability is a comparison of frequency at SPL. The MA has way higher output at 18-20khz even at the EXACT same input power. The MA is literally faster in every sense a driver can be than another of a relative same size.

Also you don't make "bigger waves" you make higher differential between low and high pressure. The waves sizes are based on frequency (length), and directionality ("width") of that frequency (directionarlity is a relationship to cone size and baffle size (for our other readers).

You should look into BL curves, and how those work... there's a lot to be said about how much you truly get out of a wide bander that is highly sensitive when you break it down to the different types of VC to magnet structures. And there's something to be said for efficiency with that. Modern drivers like the MA's often have a very flat BL curve for a huge swath of their usable range. If the BL curve look like a skinny mountain you have to through a good amount of power to try and get anything outside of the limited range. Generally the suspension on high sensitivity stuff limits this (limits xmax, you could say) to try and compress instead of distort like mad by lobbing watts at a total failure of damping. I hope that sounds like a type of driver we've been talking about...
 

morricab

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.... If you have two drivers of a relative same size, and you are trying to listen to both at let's say 95db, they will have the same speed of acceleration. F=MA but that is within a window, and that window is shaped by other driver properties too.

If you change the acceleration you either A. changed the SPL if it's within the window, or B. changed the frequency because the window changed. You're talking about not changing the window now, but that is not what you previously were saying where you're claiming the Fostex actually moves faster all together. Both drivers of a similar size (Fostex is actually a little smaller, but relatively there isn't much difference) so the actual speed capability is a comparison of frequency at SPL. The MA has way higher output at 18-20khz even at the EXACT same input power. The MA is literally faster in every sense a driver can be than another of a relative same size.

Also you don't make "bigger waves" you make higher differential between low and high pressure. The waves sizes are based on frequency (length), and directionality ("width") of that frequency (directionarlity is a relationship to cone size and baffle size (for our other readers).

You should look into BL curves, and how those work... there's a lot to be said about how much you truly get out of a wide bander that is highly sensitive when you break it down to the different types of VC to magnet structures. And there's something to be said for efficiency with that. Modern drivers like the MA's often have a very flat BL curve for a huge swath of their usable range. If the BL curve look like a skinny mountain you have to through a good amount of power to try and get anything outside of the limited range. Generally the suspension on high sensitivity stuff limits this (limits xmax, you could say) to try and compress instead of distort like mad by lobbing watts at a total failure of damping. I hope that sounds like a type of driver we've been talking about...

To get 95 dB out of the Mark Audio driver would take nearly 100watts (most of their models are 85 dB and only one is 87) and the Fostex less than two. Which one is likely to suffer thermal compression at that SPL?? You know which one...can the Mark speaker even take 100watts for more than a few ms??

You don’t make sense, SPL for a given input wattage encompasses all factors that got you there, electrical and mechanical.

Don’t parse words, it is pretty clear that by “bigger” I meant higher amplitude.

Let’s put in a watt, for an equal input at let’s say 1khz, the acceleration of the Fostex is clearly higher to get the 8db higher SPL. At 20khz the response absolute of the Fostex even though it is lower than its midband is still 84db(look at datasheet). So nearly the same. Again has less to do with the motor and more about cone design.

So both oscillate with about the same force at 20khz but below that the Fostex motor generates higher acceleration factors. It’s like letting the air out of the balloon slowly or popping it. Which one compressed the air around it more and is thus much louder?

Another example: Compression drivers are much more “explosive “ than a standard soft dome tweeter...both can get to 20khz and probably the soft dome has even a bit more extension but it would melt trying to do what my drivers do with a single watt. They simply cannot accelerate sufficiently to generate the force needed to make such high SPL...even if you put them in a horn (gains them a few dB).

As I don’t have the BL curve data for these drivers (if you have I would like to see it) the rest of your post is speculative if you don’t know it for both drivers.

What I can say from experience is that my Decware modified Fostex Fe206E drivers are very responsive at low input levels until fairly high levels where they start to shout a bit, likely due to breakup. Even in a non-horn enclosure they hardly move at SPL that results in furious pumping from low sensitivity drivers. This is only possible with a high acceleration to compress the air. Same with the Supravox I have but they are also loaded in a TQWT, so that loading helps reduce excursions. HDTs get down flat to 40hz in my room without backhorn loading (complex reflex design).

Again, sonically I have no reason to doubt the Mark based speakers are good...

I also know simple designs with low sensitivity drivers can work fine with 20-30 watts. I demonstrated this last year in one of my rooms at the Swiss High End driving a pair of Boenicke W5se (83db) with the Aries Cerat Genus (25watts). The W5 uses a 3inch Tang Band full range driver augmented with a side firing woofer and rear ambience tweeter. Not an exaggeration to say jaws dropped...but in a small hotel room and not TOO loud...but loud enough.
 

Folsom

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The MA only need approximately 8 watts to achieve 95db at the driver, this speaker would need about 16watts (due to whatever additional parts it has). I have no idea where on earth you are getting 100w.

Thermal compression they might be about equal per volume, maybe less on the MA (or even a good bit less as SPL climbs) for having a ventilated former that's also heatsinked, and has more surface area with no spider to limit circulation.

The MA is at 100db at 17.5khz, and down to 92db at 20khz. Even if you were to say that the Fostex has less because of the dust cap shape, fact is that it only accounts for a few db (just think of it like a baffle), not 7-15db.

Fostex's get shouty because the bandwidth collapses as they try to play real loud. It's just like EQing some of the annoying frequencies higher than they should be. (This is BL curve, which you can easily know what it is if you explore driver motor design more study up on underhung high sensitivity then look at XBL2 for contrast)

Compression drivers inherently need less because they have super limited limit travel. If they could make up for the fact magically, they wouldn't need all the mechanical advantages. It's easy for them to exert control because they don't have to move much at all - you hear this part because they're highly damped, very low distortion. Acceleration cannot magically be faster for any given frequency because either it means more SPL, which we aren't talking about even though they play loud, or that the time window is destroyed and you have massive distortion since you're changing the frequency. When a diaphragm moves it does so within the envelope of the frequency's time window, the only way for it to change volume is to displace more air within that time window. That means it must accelerate faster to close the distance in the same given amount of time. SPL is a function of acceleration, and velocity loosely only represents a null before deceleration. If velocity played another function you'd be making square waves. This is notable for the fact that you can't accelerate faster to a velocity to maintain, to make the same frequency (you'd be making DC, 0hz). That matters because it proves that you can't have any driver accelerating faster than another if they play the same SPL and are of a relative same size. If you say smaller drivers move faster, well, yes, they do, but it's also a bandwidth restriction & respective of SPL (that may include assisted loading).

The truth is that an awful lot of compression horn drivers have significantly lower acceleration than a lot of dome tweeters. The dome tweeter for the same SPL must accelerate faster because it has no loading advantages at all, it must displace more raw air, spending a lot more wattage on lost energy going other directions. Because it must have more capable travel, it will inherently have a less damped structure - you hear this. This is compounded by the larger sized diaphragms often found in compression tweeters. When it comes to mid/midwoofers the size being equal the dome must travel faster for a given SPL, but if you've got say 8-10" driver the requirements for acceleration go down a lot and the compression driver at 2" or whatever is probably moving faster for a shared frequency they play.

A lot of the ability related to SPL low output for single drivers of high sensitivity but low xmax is assistance like the loading you talk about, but there's another factor. They often need less feedback so that the amp will be like "ok whatever" when it sends out a bass note that ends up looking distorted to the amp due to the loading assistance (this is more complicated and involves weird stuff like reversal in phase below FS etc).

Anyways... Mark Fenlon knows this stuff, and designed his drivers very intelligently to make a more useful fullrange driver. It doesn't beam so easily because of the motor design - it's an advantage not disadvantage and the cost was some sensitivity. When using a 15-25w amp or such, you get more out of it because of the smarter design, and it doesn't require complicated transmission lines with feedbackless amps to play music (although it probably sounds pretty darn good with an SET). They have high enough dispersion that off-axis is preferred as well! They're fascinating drivers.
 

asiufy

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Can I ask you guys to take this over to a DIY or some other area, where you can discuss drivers and their minutiae? Thank you very much.
 

asiufy

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Quick update on Audio Alto's participation at the Polish Audio Show a few weeks ago...

High Fidelity Report
Even though Audio Alto was debuting a much bigger, active version of the R101FR, it was the little one that won mention among the best of the show! One of only 8 loudspeakers mentioned. The report is in polish, but an english translation will be available soon, and in the meantime, Google did a nice job automatically translating it.

The Absolute Sound Report
Great report with the highlights, and again, the Audio Alto AA R101FR was mentioned as one of the remarkable speakers there, demonstrating "stunning transparency and neutrality".
 

asiufy

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uncola

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And here's the first US review of these petite wonders!

http://v2.stereotimes.com/post/audio-alto-r101-speaker-by-terry-london/

The plan was to show them at the show circuit this year, but alas, that's not happening. So we're offering a special in-home audition offer, for those interested. Contact me for details.


cheers,
Alex
I heard extremely good things about these speakers from people who attended the recent T.H.E. Show.. multiple people said it was their favorite!
 

Rjhd3

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Sep 8, 2022
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Very curious about these. Both wondering what they sound like as is and possibly with a swapped out driver lacking the spider design.

However they sell in EU for under $3000 euros. Given exchange rates however I f at 1:1, any chance a price adjustment is in the future for the US distributor?
 

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