Arrogance! GRRRR!!!!!

[Johnny Vinyl]

I need to get something off my chest that has been eating away at me for the last 24 hours. I cannot post it anywhere else, but I need to post it as I have to let loose.

In 1999 I started working where I do now, and I was quickly offered a full-time position, which I gladly accepted. A few months after I started I had a slight run-in with a manager who openly lashed out at me when I offered an alternative for doing a specific job, which I thought (and still do) made more sense. I was extremely embarrassed, yet continued on and did as I was instructed. A few hours later while sitting in the lunchroom having a coffee he approached me and apologized. And while I appreciated the gesture, I also know it didn't come from the heart (I have a really good sense about things like that). It was instead said for others to hear and to make himself sound more conciliatory and fair. I didn't have any more issues with him personally after that, but I found out what kind of person he was. He left a while later to manage another location.

Well...guess what? He's back again and I have about 4 years or so of his management style to look forward to. It's been about 2 months and staff morale has plummeted like I've not seen before. This is not just from hourly staff, but also entry-level and middle-management types. The air reeks of unhappiness and frustration and I suspect the level of turnover will see a dramatic increase as people will ask for transfers or simply leave. Really sad when you think of it.

This week, yesterday in fact, I was in the general office showing someone a part of my job that she is being cross-trained for, for when I'm away sick or on holiday. Without coming up to me, but rather from walking out of his office into the general area he says "John, I expect to have a report update on X (doesn't matter what it is) very soon". I turn around to answer him and got up, but he never waited for my response and walked out the office and into the store. I just stood there with my mouth open in amazement at the sheer arrogance of it all. Within about 2 seconds I was fuming and I'm still fuming. The fact he did what he did is not what continues to upset me however. It's the fact I can't say or do anything to address it. I am 60 years old and can't afford to lose my job, so I stay quiet, but I'd rather not. If I were 20 years younger and didn't have to be concerned about finding another job my reaction would be completely different.

There is more.

It would be unfair of me to not also mention other situations that have me shaking my head with annoyance. Recently we've had 2 people that were promoted and I personally thought, like most others, they were excellent choices, and well-deserved ones at that. Unfortunately, with success, people change. The friend I was once knew and conversed with on an equal level has now decided that eye-contact while conversing is no longer needed. That is now only the domain of equals and other management types. I've even told one of them " Ummm...I'm here...I'm talking to you!". He appeared somewhat taken aback so I haven't bothered with him since.

I have been around the block in my 45 years of working ( I started at 14), have held various middle-upper management positions, owned my own company, but NEVER, and I mean NEVER have I treated any employee and/or co-worker with the disrespect I've been witness to in the last while. It is beyond my comprehension.

 

[mep]

John-I've never been very good at not telling people what I think of them so I can't be much help here. One thing I do know is that you can't let this eat you up. If speaking up and telling this guy you don't appreciate him being a douche bag will get you fired, then you just have to let it go and know you are the better man.

 

[Mike Lavigne]

i manage a company with 150 employees. i have 11 managers that report to me.

you have tools at your disposal.

in this day and age any company has to avoid what is known as a 'hostile work environment'. i am not familiar with the Canadian labor laws, but in the US this issue can become very painful for any employer. this manager has shown hostility to you in the past, and possibly is known for this conflictual style. if your company has an HR person, i would suggest that you sit down and speak to them about your concerns. and remember, the evidence of what is a hostile work environment is how you are made to feel.

the operative word here is respect. as an employee of this company you deserve respect. if this manager has a style that makes the employee feel disrespected, then it is the company's responsibility to solve that problem or they will open themselves to real issues that could get expensive.

also; at 60 years old you are in a protected class of employees, at least in the US. i'm not saying age discrimination has anything to do with your situation, but it's a factor in how the company will look at this.

step back and take a deep breath and make sure you have as objective a look at the facts of what has happened as possible. maybe ask a few trusted fellow employees for their objective perspective on what has happened. if after this you still feel that this person will be making your time at work uncomfortable, then act.

good luck.

 

[Johnny Vinyl]

Mark - I'm very much like you in that regard, but being a better man out on the street is not one of my options at this stage in my life, so I need to be careful as to how I approach this matter, should I decide to do so.

 

[MylesBAstor]

I need to get something off my chest that has been eating away at me for the last 24 hours. I cannot post it anywhere else, but I need to post it as I have to let loose.

In 1999 I started working where I do now, and I was quickly offered a full-time position, which I gladly accepted. A few months after I started I had a slight run-in with a manager who openly lashed out at me when I offered an alternative for doing a specific job, which I thought (and still do) made more sense. I was extremely embarrassed, yet continued on and did as I was instructed. A few hours later while sitting in the lunchroom having a coffee he approached me and apologized. And while I appreciated the gesture, I also know it didn't come from the heart (I have a really good sense about things like that). It was instead said for others to hear and to make himself sound more conciliatory and fair. I didn't have any more issues with him personally after that, but I found out what kind of person he was. He left a while later to manage another location.

Well...guess what? He's back again and I have about 4 years or so of his management style to look forward to. It's been about 2 months and staff morale has plummeted like I've not seen before. This is not just from hourly staff, but also entry-level and middle-management types. The air reeks of unhappiness and frustration and I suspect the level of turnover will see a dramatic increase as people will ask for transfers or simply leave. Really sad when you think of it.

This week, yesterday in fact, I was in the general office showing someone a part of my job that she is being cross-trained for, for when I'm away sick or on holiday. Without coming up to me, but rather from walking out of his office into the general area he says "John, I expect to have a report update on X (doesn't matter what it is) very soon". I turn around to answer him and got up, but he never waited for my response and walked out the office and into the store. I just stood there with my mouth open in amazement at the sheer arrogance of it all. Within about 2 seconds I was fuming and I'm still fuming. The fact he did what he did is not what continues to upset me however. It's the fact I can't say or do anything to address it. I am 60 years old and can't afford to lose my job, so I stay quiet, but I'd rather not. If I were 20 years younger and didn't have to be concerned about finding another job my reaction would be completely different.

There is more.

It would be unfair of me to not also mention other situations that have me shaking my head with annoyance. Recently we've had 2 people that were promoted and I personally thought, like most others, they were excellent choices, and well-deserved ones at that. Unfortunately, with success, people change. The friend I was once knew and conversed with on an equal level has now decided that eye-contact while conversing is no longer needed. That is now only the domain of equals and other management types. I've even told one of them " Ummm...I'm here...I'm talking to you!". He appeared somewhat taken aback so I haven't bothered with him since.

I have been around the block in my 45 years of working ( I started at 14), have held various middle-upper management positions, owned my own company, but NEVER, and I mean NEVER have I treated any employee and/or co-worker with the disrespect I've been witness to in the last while. It is beyond my comprehension.

"People rise to their highest level of incompetence." Peter Principle

 

[Johnny Vinyl]

i manage a company with 150 employees. i have 11 managers that report to me.

you have tools at your disposal.

in this day and age any company has to avoid what is known as a 'hostile work environment'. i am not familiar with the Canadian labor laws, but in the US this issue can become very painful for any employer. this manager has shown hostility to you in the past, and possibly is known for this conflictual style. if your company has an HR person, i would suggest that you sit down and speak to them about your concerns. and remember, the evidence of what is a hostile work environment is how you are made to feel.

the operative word here is respect. as an employee of this company you deserve respect. if this manager has a style that makes the employee feel disrespected, then it is the company's responsibility to solve that problem or they will open themselves to real issues that could get expensive.

also; at 60 years old you are in a protected class of employees, at least in the US. i'm not saying age discrimination has anything to do with your situation, but it's a factor in how the company will look at this.

step back and take a deep breath and make sure you have as objective a look at the facts of what has happened as possible. maybe ask a few trusted fellow employees for their objective perspective on what has happened. if after this you still feel that this person will be making your time at work uncomfortable, then act.

good luck.

Mike - Our laws in Canada run quite similar in that regard, so yes....I have options and will exercise them, should I feel that is my only recourse. It must be mentioned that I do not think I am being singled out. It's just his management style.

 

[puroagave]

"People rise to their highest level of incompetence." Peter Principle

or the dilbert principle.

 

[amirm]

I have been on both sides of these situations John. What I am about to say comes from decades of experience. I see no other way around it:

1. You will almost, never, win a battle against your manager. The company as a rule will start in a position of siding with him. He will be in meetings with HR and his manager that you will not be part of, giving his side of the story. It is like being young and having a fight with your parents. With rare exceptions, you will lose that fight. You simply do not have the leverage to topple him. His failures likewise with others will not amount to much unless his boss sees it, not you. As soon as it become apparent that you are fighting him, you will start to lose your status in the company.

2. The only solution in my mind, again gained from years of experience, is to find another job. Yes, that has its own hassles. But there is no way around it. If you do good work, you will be able to find another job. If you cannot, then I am afraid you have to put up with the aggravation. It will make your life hell as every morning you will wake up with this angst. You will always be on guard with others getting their way in the group and you not. It will eat at you. But sometimes you have to do it. I did so for two years once and got lucky with that manager making a huge mistake that got him dismissed.

3. Don't hang your hat on being in protected class. All they have to do is document insubordination and competence problems. At least in US, three times in a row and you have a good enough situation that HR will back you to let go of the employee regardless of such status. Winning a lawsuit after the fact will be very hard, long and embarrassing. Again, remember rule #1. The manager has tools to walk you out that you simply will have no visibility into. Your dissatisfaction with your manger *will* lead you to do things that paint a picture of an unhappy person who does not work well with others and is not taking direction from his manager.

4. It is a dangerous move but there is an option that sometimes works. Get an appointment with his boss. When you get there, be open, willing to work with anyone, but share that it is challenging for you all of a sudden to get your work done. Don't make it life and death. Don't position your boss as the guy to get fired. All you are trying to do is read the tea leaves to see if he will back your boss or you. If you don't know him, you don't want to do this as you have no political capital. The down side of this is that with 100% certainty, he will talk to your boss and the situation will get worse before, or if ever, it gets better.

5. Here is one rule to remember about corporate life: IT IS NOT SUPPOSED TO BE FAIR! People assume the right thing should happen. But there is no such court system. As I said, you will be in a fight that is set up to completely favor your boss. He wants to get promoted again and you complaining interferes with that. So he will fight you and you almost always lose. No one will shed a tear either as it will be "clear" you were wrong.

I had been in identical situation to you. I fought my boss. I was very valuable so the consequences was not me getting fired. But it cost me a few years of my career. One day I realized all of the above, put side any angst I had and focused on doing great work. I decided to get along with everyone and soon I was on a fast promotion track. The one boss left the company and later came back at a rank below me . All the people who were fighting me wound up working for me. At the peak, I had over 1,000 people working for me, starting with just one. Not saying I know all there is to know here. But I can't caution you enough to not fight the boss. You need leverage and options and that only comes from finding another job. That is what the company is risking in having you report to the wrong person and nothing proves that better than you having other options.

Let me end by saying that this is the toughest situation an employee can be. I feel really bad for you. The options to get out of it, short of getting lucky and the manager moving on, are tough.

 

[DaveyF]

John, I would second Amir's post above.. One of the huge problems with working for anyone and therefore having a "boss" is that that person has the ability to do what they are doing to you. I'm NOT saying that's right, but that is the reality.
One other suggestion that I would have, would be to try and interact as little as possible with this individual, and IF that is not possible, consider a change... whether it be in the company to another division if possible, or to leave the company. Best to exercise that last option once you have secured another job. I'm self employed, and always have been for this reason, however, my brother isn't and has been in your situation numerous times. I'm not saying that self-employment is always better, since both options have their issues, however, your current problem isn't one of them if you are self-employed.

 

[Johnny Vinyl]

I have been on both sides of these situations John. What I am about to say comes from decades of experience. I see no other way around it:

1. You will almost, never, win a battle against your manager. The company as a rule will start in a position of siding with him. He will be in meetings with HR and his manager that you will not be part of, giving his side of the story. It is like being young and having a fight with your parents. With rare exceptions, you will lose that fight. You simply do not have the leverage to topple him. His failures likewise with others will not amount to much unless his boss sees it, not you. As soon as it become apparent that you are fighting him, you will start to lose your status in the company.

2. The only solution in my mind, again gained from years of experience, is to find another job. Yes, that has its own hassles. But there is no way around it. If you do good work, you will be able to find another job. If you cannot, then I am afraid you have to put up with the aggravation. It will make your life hell as every morning you will wake up with this angst. You will always be on guard with others getting their way in the group and you not. It will eat at you. But sometimes you have to do it. I did so for two years once and got lucky with that manager making a huge mistake that got him dismissed.

3. Don't hang your hat on being in protected class. All they have to do is document insubordination and competence problems. At least in US, three times in a row and you have a good enough situation that HR will back you to let go of the employee regardless of such status. Winning a lawsuit after the fact will be very hard, long and embarrassing. Again, remember rule #1. The manager has tools to walk you out that you simply will have no visibility into. Your dissatisfaction with your manger *will* lead you to do things that paint a picture of an unhappy person who does not work well with others and is not taking direction from his manager.

4. It is a dangerous move but there is an option that sometimes works. Get an appointment with his boss. When you get there, be open, willing to work with anyone, but share that it is challenging for you all of a sudden to get your work done. Don't make it life and death. Don't position your boss as the guy to get fired. All you are trying to do is read the tea leaves to see if he will back your boss or you. If you don't know him, you don't want to do this as you have no political capital. The down side of this is that with 100% certainty, he will talk to your boss and the situation will get worse before, or if ever, it gets better.

5. Here is one rule to remember about corporate life: IT IS NOT SUPPOSED TO BE FAIR! People assume the right thing should happen. But there is no such court system. As I said, you will be in a fight that is set up to completely favor your boss. He wants to get promoted again and you complaining interferes with that. So he will fight you and you almost always lose. No one will shed a tear either as it will be "clear" you were wrong.

I had been in identical situation to you. I fought my boss. I was very valuable so the consequences was not me getting fired. But it cost me a few years of my career. One day I realized all of the above, put side any angst I had and focused on doing great work. I decided to get along with everyone and soon I was on a fast promotion track. The one boss left the company and later came back at a rank below me . All the people who were fighting me wound up working for me. At the peak, I had over 1,000 people working for me, starting with just one. Not saying I know all there is to know here. But I can't caution you enough to not fight the boss. You need leverage and options and that only comes from finding another job. That is what the company is risking in having you report to the wrong person and nothing proves that better than you having other options.

Let me end by saying that this is the toughest situation an employee can be. I feel really bad for you. The options to get out of it, short of getting lucky and the manager moving on, are tough.

Amir - Thank you for that very descriptive analysis and I want to read it over in the next day or so. I'm torn (internally) as to what to do or how to react, so I'll sit back and let myself calm down. I'm a fairly level-headed guy, although I have my moments, but this is just too important to act on while being in the emotional frame of mind I am. It's breathe-in, breathe-out time.

 

[jazdoc]

I have been on both sides of these situations John. What I am about to say comes from decades of experience. I see no other way around it:

1. You will almost, never, win a battle against your manager. The company as a rule will start in a position of siding with him. He will be in meetings with HR and his manager that you will not be part of, giving his side of the story. It is like being young and having a fight with your parents. With rare exceptions, you will lose that fight. You simply do not have the leverage to topple him. His failures likewise with others will not amount to much unless his boss sees it, not you. As soon as it become apparent that you are fighting him, you will start to lose your status in the company.

2. The only solution in my mind, again gained from years of experience, is to find another job. Yes, that has its own hassles. But there is no way around it. If you do good work, you will be able to find another job. If you cannot, then I am afraid you have to put up with the aggravation. It will make your life hell as every morning you will wake up with this angst. You will always be on guard with others getting their way in the group and you not. It will eat at you. But sometimes you have to do it. I did so for two years once and got lucky with that manager making a huge mistake that got him dismissed.

3. Don't hang your hat on being in protected class. All they have to do is document insubordination and competence problems. At least in US, three times in a row and you have a good enough situation that HR will back you to let go of the employee regardless of such status. Winning a lawsuit after the fact will be very hard, long and embarrassing. Again, remember rule #1. The manager has tools to walk you out that you simply will have no visibility into. Your dissatisfaction with your manger *will* lead you to do things that paint a picture of an unhappy person who does not work well with others and is not taking direction from his manager.

4. It is a dangerous move but there is an option that sometimes works. Get an appointment with his boss. When you get there, be open, willing to work with anyone, but share that it is challenging for you all of a sudden to get your work done. Don't make it life and death. Don't position your boss as the guy to get fired. All you are trying to do is read the tea leaves to see if he will back your boss or you. If you don't know him, you don't want to do this as you have no political capital. The down side of this is that with 100% certainty, he will talk to your boss and the situation will get worse before, or if ever, it gets better.

5. Here is one rule to remember about corporate life: IT IS NOT SUPPOSED TO BE FAIR! People assume the right thing should happen. But there is no such court system. As I said, you will be in a fight that is set up to completely favor your boss. He wants to get promoted again and you complaining interferes with that. So he will fight you and you almost always lose. No one will shed a tear either as it will be "clear" you were wrong.

I had been in identical situation to you. I fought my boss. I was very valuable so the consequences was not me getting fired. But it cost me a few years of my career. One day I realized all of the above, put side any angst I had and focused on doing great work. I decided to get along with everyone and soon I was on a fast promotion track. The one boss left the company and later came back at a rank below me . All the people who were fighting me wound up working for me. At the peak, I had over 1,000 people working for me, starting with just one. Not saying I know all there is to know here. But I can't caution you enough to not fight the boss. You need leverage and options and that only comes from finding another job. That is what the company is risking in having you report to the wrong person and nothing proves that better than you having other options.

Let me end by saying that this is the toughest situation an employee can be. I feel really bad for you. The options to get out of it, short of getting lucky and the manager moving on, are tough.

Amir--

What a thoughtful response. I'm printing this one and keeping it. Terrific insights!

 

[Steve Williams]

The difference between you and some of these managers is that you are a mensch John and they aren't

Looking for a new job isn't an easy option. The run ins at work are now merely lack of friendliness and eye to eye contact

Keep good notes for any issues but IMO keep your head high and just don't sweat the small stuff and never forget as Mike suggested the issue of a "hostile work environment". Are you the only recipient or are there others

 

[Johnny Vinyl]

John, I would second Amir's post above.. One of the huge problems with working for anyone and therefore having a "boss" is that that person has the ability to do what they are doing to you. I'm NOT saying that's right, but that is the reality.
One other suggestion that I would have, would be to try and interact as little as possible with this individual, and IF that is not possible, consider a change... whether it be in the company to another division if possible, or to leave the company. Best to exercise that last option once you have secured another job. I'm self employed, and always have been for this reason, however, my brother isn't and has been in your situation numerous times. I'm not saying that self-employment is always better, since both options have their issues, however, your current problem isn't one of them if you are self-employed.

Davey - Fortunately my position allows for a great deal of independence, so my interaction can easily be even more limited. I just find it to be very annoying that I have to consider it, as I'm by nature very communicative. I could, and will, channel more of that information to him electronically as opposed to face-to-face. Not my preference, but it is what it is.

 

[Johnny Vinyl]

Steve - As I mentioned earlier I'm not being singled out, so that's good. If I were then the issue would loom even larger.

 

[cjfrbw]

Amir's summary was gold.

Every day, think of how you can be positive and helpful. A negative attitude shows, and everybody will be poorer. The sign of a mature individual is one who is able to absorb a certain amount of injustice without taking it personally, and still contribute.

Never vocalize your bad opinions to your co-workers, they will just encourage your negativity and then use it against you in the end.

Remember, the goal isn't to change your boss, it is to optimize your own position and not shoot yourself in the foot with meaningless crusades.

 

[Gregadd]

 

[DaveyF]

Davey - Fortunately my position allows for a great deal of independence, so my interaction can easily be even more limited. I just find it to be very annoying that I have to consider it, as I'm by nature very communicative. I could, and will, channel more of that information to him electronically as opposed to face-to-face. Not my preference, but it is what it is.

I completely understand that, John. Thank goodness you can increase your independence and limit your interaction with this individual.

 

[NorthStar]

I have been on both sides of these situations John. What I am about to say comes from decades of experience. I see no other way around it:

1. You will almost, never, win a battle against your manager. The company as a rule will start in a position of siding with him. He will be in meetings with HR and his manager that you will not be part of, giving his side of the story. It is like being young and having a fight with your parents. With rare exceptions, you will lose that fight. You simply do not have the leverage to topple him. His failures likewise with others will not amount to much unless his boss sees it, not you. As soon as it become apparent that you are fighting him, you will start to lose your status in the company.

2. The only solution in my mind, again gained from years of experience, is to find another job. Yes, that has its own hassles. But there is no way around it. If you do good work, you will be able to find another job. If you cannot, then I am afraid you have to put up with the aggravation. It will make your life hell as every morning you will wake up with this angst. You will always be on guard with others getting their way in the group and you not. It will eat at you. But sometimes you have to do it. I did so for two years once and got lucky with that manager making a huge mistake that got him dismissed.

3. Don't hang your hat on being in protected class. All they have to do is document insubordination and competence problems. At least in US, three times in a row and you have a good enough situation that HR will back you to let go of the employee regardless of such status. Winning a lawsuit after the fact will be very hard, long and embarrassing. Again, remember rule #1. The manager has tools to walk you out that you simply will have no visibility into. Your dissatisfaction with your manger *will* lead you to do things that paint a picture of an unhappy person who does not work well with others and is not taking direction from his manager.

4. It is a dangerous move but there is an option that sometimes works. Get an appointment with his boss. When you get there, be open, willing to work with anyone, but share that it is challenging for you all of a sudden to get your work done. Don't make it life and death. Don't position your boss as the guy to get fired. All you are trying to do is read the tea leaves to see if he will back your boss or you. If you don't know him, you don't want to do this as you have no political capital. The down side of this is that with 100% certainty, he will talk to your boss and the situation will get worse before, or if ever, it gets better.

5. Here is one rule to remember about corporate life: IT IS NOT SUPPOSED TO BE FAIR! People assume the right thing should happen. But there is no such court system. As I said, you will be in a fight that is set up to completely favor your boss. He wants to get promoted again and you complaining interferes with that. So he will fight you and you almost always lose. No one will shed a tear either as it will be "clear" you were wrong.

I had been in identical situation to you. I fought my boss. I was very valuable so the consequences was not me getting fired. But it cost me a few years of my career. One day I realized all of the above, put side any angst I had and focused on doing great work. I decided to get along with everyone and soon I was on a fast promotion track. The one boss left the company and later came back at a rank below me . All the people who were fighting me wound up working for me. At the peak, I had over 1,000 people working for me, starting with just one. Not saying I know all there is to know here. But I can't caution you enough to not fight the boss. You need leverage and options and that only comes from finding another job. That is what the company is risking in having you report to the wrong person and nothing proves that better than you having other options.

Let me end by saying that this is the toughest situation an employee can be. I feel really bad for you. The options to get out of it, short of getting lucky and the manager moving on, are tough.

---- Amir, that was an excellent read.

 

[flez007]

Focus on points 2 and 4 from Amirm post amomg the other good advice items there mentioned, and to succeed you will need to market yourself accordingly, what value are you bringing to your current company, and what other value you feel safe can bring additionaly for potential employers.

Dedicated, trustable and results oriented individuals are needed everywhere.

 

[mep]

Dedicated, trustable and results oriented individuals are needed everywhere.

There is an old saying that good help is hard to find. I have modified that statement by adding: always has been and always will be.