Aries Cerat DACs vs. other brands

[morricab]

A

I’ve compared my aging Lampi GG2 to Helene in my room. Both are R2R dacs (my Lampi has Soekris R2R). But I do not think it matters, as Ron said, implementation is the key. Initially, I was very much impressed with the tone and smoothness of the Helene’s presentation, especially compared to my super-dynamic Lampi with 242 tubes. However, after switching back to Lampi, I was surprised that I could hear more on both ends of the spectrum. I invited another audiophile, and we both heard the same: better dynamics, more base and more air in HF with Lampi vs Helene. I know other people, who moved from Lampi to Aries Cerat, so maybe it’s my taste or my room or both. Anyway, Helene is a very good dac that has very smooth and non-fatiguing presentation, very analog one. But some people like myself are used to a more modern presentation and may prefer other dacs.

Any rolling of the Helene rectifier tube? If not then you probably didn’t hear the DAC at its best. Just like the Lampizator, if you don’t roll the tubes you are not extracting the full potential. If you used stock GG2 tubes, would it be competitive to your maxed out GG2? With Incito preamp, which is basically the output stage of Helene, I made profound improvements rolling the rectifier.

 

[LL21]

Hi Opabin,
I too find the R2R DAC architecture more natural to listen to than sigma/delta or software implementations.

However, I have so far not been that enamored with the discrete resistor implementations with the exception of TotalDAC. Personally, I think the best digital sound comes from 2 things: 1) a very good R2R chip (either with over sampling (not upsampling) or non-oversampling) 2) IV conversion that is passive or with discrete transistor 3) tube or discrete class A transistor output stage and 4) massive robust powersupply.

There are some exceptions to that but they are few and far between...for me.

The first discrete R2R implementation as far as I am aware was by Accuphase in the early 90s. They then moved to using the BB PCM63K 20 bit chip (one of the absolute best) and in their top DACs like the DC-91 used multiple chips, like Aries Cerat does today (Accuphase called it MMB or multi-multibit). This lowers the noise floor and ups the dynamics considerably.

I don't think it is possible to get a discrete DAC to the level of precision of a laser trimmed chip like a BB PCM1704, which was the best measuring of all the IC based DAC chips from the 80s and 90s. Probably the most loved ones though are the AD1865N, which is used by Aries Cerat and Audio Note among others, the Philips TD-1541 and the BB PCM63K. IMO, these will all outperform a discrete DAC if implemented in ways described above.

As to Sigma/Delta. The Lampizator implementations are very good and arguably more "airy" and resolved; however, that doesn't necessarily make them sound more "real". Recent DACs that use top AKM chips are also very very good, like from Metronome and Ayon.

That said, I still strongly prefer a good R2R DAC implementation using IC chips. A friend of mine recently brought over an Abbas DAC that uses the old Philips TD-1541 16bit chip. This sounded wonderful...plenty of resolution and lovely tone and huge dynamics. The Aries Cerat DACs sound soemwhat more neutral than this but you still know it is a tube R2R DAC and the dynamics and soundstage are huge. More detailed and resolved than the Abbas DAC as well. The AC DACs have a very "grounded" sound where there is this sensation of an ultra stable foundation upon which the music is built and organized...it all makes sense together. It is not as "airy" and extended as a Lampizator DAC and some people prefer that.

Fascinating to hear about digital views given how many years have passed. Thanks for that. We own the 4-box Zanden which is TDA 1541 double-crown, but with (at the time) obsessive attention to power supply, output, i2s connections, lowering vibration, EMI/RFI...and we have since added the Waversa INT REF Ext inbetween which has really changed the game on lower noise and detail of the original.

That said, Audiocrack also still owns his Zanden...but has clearly moved to the 300K+ Waversa digital..so a little leap in price forward!

I am most curious about latest generation of digital, but not really thinking about it, given that it sounds very natural and balanced.

 

[abeidrov]

A

Any rolling of the Helene rectifier tube? If not then you probably didn’t hear the DAC at its best. Just like the Lampizator, if you don’t roll the tubes you are not extracting the full potential. If you used stock GG2 tubes, would it be competitive to your maxed out GG2? With Incito preamp, which is basically the output stage of Helene, I made profound improvements rolling the rectifier.

You may be right. If I had switched from 242 to 300B in the Lampi, it is quite possible I would have preferred Helene dac to Lampi.

 

[Argonaut]

You may be right. If I had switched from 242 to 300B in the Lampi, it is quite possible I would have preferred Helene dac to Lampi.

I suspect that many folks would be very happy with either of these fine DAC’s especially given the price point of some DAC’s in the current market.

 

[morricab]

You may be right. If I had switched from 242 to 300B in the Lampi, it is quite possible I would have preferred Helene dac to Lampi.

I went from a decent NOS GZ34 to a holy grail metal base one and the leap in dynamics and transparency was frankly very surprising.

 

[Opabin]

I went from a decent NOS GZ34 to a holy grail metal base one and the leap in dynamics and transparency was frankly very surprising.

Was that an Amperex GZ34? Or a Mullard? Just curious.

 

[morricab]

Was that an Amperex GZ34? Or a Mullard? Just curious.

Labelled Valvo...I think it is a Philips...or Mullard? Not sure.

 

[Opabin]

Labelled Valvo...I think it is a Philips...or Mullard? Not sure.

At the Audiotubes site, I found a listing for this:
* 5AR4/GZ34 metalbase, Amperex/Philips Holland made, short bottle, flat top, hole in centering pin, Nickel collared base.
* Description: A very rare nickel base Holland made for Vavlo [sic], nice label on the glass. These very early dated 5AR4s are the absolute holy grail of vintage metalbase West European tubes, and this rare Amperex tube is one of the best 5AR4 types ever made at any time.
* Link: http://www.audiotubes.com/audtube.htm

Could this be your rectifier? Rare, superb quality and out of stock.

 

[morricab]

Y

At the Audiotubes site, I found a listing for this:
* 5AR4/GZ34 metalbase, Amperex/Philips Holland made, short bottle, flat top, hole in centering pin, Nickel collared base.
* Description: A very rare nickel base Holland made for Vavlo [sic], nice label on the glass. These very early dated 5AR4s are the absolute holy grail of vintage metalbase West European tubes, and this rare Amperex tube is one of the best 5AR4 types ever made at any time.
* Link: http://www.audiotubes.com/audtube.htm

Could this be your rectifier? Rare, superb quality and out of stock.

Yes, that’s the one …mine is from 1955

 

[morricab]

 

[Opabin]

View attachment 131553

Beautiful!
Newbie question: am I correct in supposing that the Inverted Triode in the Kassandra series and the TriodeFet in the Ithaka DAC are performing the same or similar rectification of the output stage?

 

[morricab]

Beautiful!
Newbie question: am I correct in supposing that the Inverted Triode in the Kassandra series and the TriodeFet in the Ithaka DAC are performing the same or similar rectification of the output stage?

Kassandra reference no, it uses SS rectifiers. Ithaka, I’m not sure. Kassandra sig I am also not sure.

 

[skids929]

I’ve compared my aging Lampi GG2 to Helene in my room. Both are R2R dacs (my Lampi has Soekris R2R). But I do not think it matters, as Ron said, implementation is the key. Initially, I was very much impressed with the tone and smoothness of the Helene’s presentation, especially compared to my super-dynamic Lampi with 242 tubes. However, after switching back to Lampi, I was surprised that I could hear more on both ends of the spectrum. I invited another audiophile, and we both heard the same: better dynamics, more base and more air in HF with Lampi vs Helene. I know other people, who moved from Lampi to Aries Cerat, so maybe it’s my taste or my room or both. Anyway, Helene is a very good dac that has very smooth and non-fatiguing presentation, very analog one. But some people like myself are used to a more modern presentation and may prefer other dacs.

I agree with this, with the exception of the Lampi part, I don't have experience with it..I had a Helene in my room and it wasn't for me. Nice DAC, smooth, just didn't have the mid range and dynamics I thought it would.

Different strokes for different folks thats what makes the hobby interesting I guess.

 

[marty]

View attachment 131553

I went through a GZ34 phase a few years ago. Fabulous rectifier. There are basically 2 variants, the British Mullards and the EU Amperex/Philips/Valvo others. Each one had metal base versions. This was one of the first examples, for me, that demonstrated the well known mantra that "everything is system dependent". The Mullards did not work for me at all- they were a bit heavy and sluggish sounding, where the Amperex/Phillips was fantastic (in a Lampizator GG2). To this day, the bass of that GG2 with a GZ34 and direct heated 242's was about as good as I've ever had. Sonically, I never found the metal bases to sound superior, but they were priced higher so it seems some hobbyists found them more desirable (hence costly) for a reason even though i didn't quite understand why. I still recall being amazed at how such a big huge sound came out of that small tube. I still have one sitting on my shelf because i can't bear to part with it although I will probably never use one again! It just brings a smile to my face every time I see it sitting there.

 

[morricab]

I went through a GZ34 phase a few years ago. Fabulous rectifier. There are basically 2 variants, the British Mullards and the EU Amperex/Philips/Valvo others. Each one had metal base versions. This was one of the first examples, for me, that demonstrated the well known mantra that "everything is system dependent". The Mullards did not work for me at all- they were a bit heavy and sluggish sounding, where the Amperex/Phillips was fantastic (in a Lampizator GG2). To this day, the bass of that GG2 with a GZ34 and direct heated 242's was about as good as I've ever had. Sonically, I never found the metal bases to sound superior, but they were priced higher so it seems some hobbyists found them more desirable (hence costly) for a reason even though i didn't quite understand why. I still recall being amazed at how such a big huge sound came out of that small tube. I still have one sitting on my shelf because i can't bear to part with it although I will probably never use one again! It just brings a smile to my face every time I see it sitting there.

We call the sound “minty fresh” with huge soundstage. 5U4Gs are warmer and meatier but less transparent “gloomy” where the Valvo I have is crisp and clean. A good compromise between has been a Sylvania 5U4GB.

 

[Phantom-Audio]

Kassandra reference no, it uses SS rectifiers. Ithaka, I’m not sure. Kassandra sig I am also not sure.

Ithaka uses SS, Kass Sig and LE use Rectifiers.

Kassandra Ref MK2 is also SS

 

[Argonaut]

Kassandra reference no, it uses SS rectifiers. Ithaka, I’m not sure. Kassandra sig I am also not sure.

 

[Mr. Analog]

I went through a GZ34 phase a few years ago. Fabulous rectifier. There are basically 2 variants, the British Mullards and the EU Amperex/Philips/Valvo others. Each one had metal base versions. This was one of the first examples, for me, that demonstrated the well known mantra that "everything is system dependent". The Mullards did not work for me at all- they were a bit heavy and sluggish sounding, where the Amperex/Phillips was fantastic (in a Lampizator GG2). To this day, the bass of that GG2 with a GZ34 and direct heated 242's was about as good as I've ever had. Sonically, I never found the metal bases to sound superior, but they were priced higher so it seems some hobbyists found them more desirable (hence costly) for a reason even though i didn't quite understand why. I still recall being amazed at how such a big huge sound came out of that small tube. I still have one sitting on my shelf because i can't bear to part with it although I will probably never use one again! It just brings a smile to my face every time I see it sitting there.

But there are also GZ34 Raytheon made by Matsushita (Japan) as a third variant. Did you try this?

 

[marty]

But there are also GZ34 Raytheon made by Matsushita (Japan) as a third variant. Did you try this?

No, I have not. From Pasquale Russo's EL34 Bible (7th edition):

EL34/6CA7s by Matsushita
Matsushita Electric Industrial Co., Ltd. is a Japanese electronics manufacturer based in Kadoma, Osaka Prefecture, Japan. The company was founded in 1918 by Konosuke Matsushita and operated factories in Japan and Asia through the end of World War II, producing various electrical components.After WWII, Matsushita began to supply in Japan the increased demand of radios and other electronic appliances. In 1961, Konosuke Matsushita gone in the United States to meet American dealers. Then Matsushita began producing television sets for the U.S. market under the Panasonic brand name, and in1979 expanded the use of the brand to Europe.

The company used “Matsushita Electric” trademark for domestic market and“National” trademark outside of North America during the 1950’s through the1970’s. This one is the registered export name of Matsushita which has absolutely no affiliation with the national brand in the U.S., named National Electric (there as a conflict, still unsolved even today, with the U.S. registered name). It sold televisions, radios, home appliances and vacuum tubes in some markets. The company began opening manufacturing plants around the world.It's certain that Matsushita Electric acquired extensive technical capabilities fromDutch Philips, starting with major technical cooperation agreement in 1952, andthat Philips EL34 technology was provided to manufacture these and other valves.

During the years were produced by Matsushita various EL34s, initially very closeto metal based EL34s by Philips or TFK, and also to the Mullard Xf2 single ring(or halo) getter version, but in the early 1960s Matsushita began too their own production of almost different EL34s. They did not have the usual Philips date code but their own code system. Moreover, the company rebranded tubes manufactured in European Philips factories, for example the 1961 Amperex d-dgetter. Vice versa many EL34s made by Matsushita were rebranded Amperex,Raytheon, Westinghouse, Radio Shack, Mazda, et cetera. Panasonic was brandname used by Matsushita in the overseas markets. It is supposed that the Matsushita production ended around 1978.

Koji HAYASHI and Ibaraki JAPAN fully investigated about these particular versions, describing their very interesting results in their web site. Unfortunately, they wrote in Japanese, but by the help of the on-line translator I was able to understand something.

Generally speaking, the early EL34/6CA7s and other tubes too (like the 5AR4) made by Matsushita look flat top. They were manufactured in ‘50s before the Company signed an agreement with Philips group. These tubes are today very rare and are considered high quality devices. The mid- and late Matsushita EL34scan be typically identified by the single or double split seam on top glass of the tube.

All domestic Matsushita tubes made in late 60’s and 70’s are marketed as "Matsushita Electric" with a triangle on the glass.

 

[Zappadaddy]

Do you guys know if these dacs play 32 bit and 384khz?