Another Boulder amp from hell...

[ack]

Maybe they have to go to hell to anodize it.

 

[Mike Lavigne]

Maybe they have to go to hell to anodize it.

i know that in the case of my dart 458's that the anodizing is not a trivial step. it involves multiple attempts sometimes due to color mismatches and other challenges. the QC for products like this has to be pretty much perfect. much of the delay in getting my darts was this process.

so adding 10% for different color is not as crazy as it might seem it should be.

 

[audioarcher]

Maybe with colors other than black. My whole black Allinic H3000 does not even cost as much as the option for black on the Boulder amp! That is just plain insane any way you slice it.

Allnic does not charge any more for black than silver either.

 

[edorr]

i know that in the case of my dart 458's that the anodizing is not a trivial step. it involves multiple attempts sometimes due to color mismatches and other challenges. the QC for products like this has to be pretty much perfect. much of the delay in getting my darts was this process.

so adding 10% for different color is not as crazy as it might seem it should be.

Mike, the price of anodizing a chassis is entirely unrelated to the value/cost of electronics in the chassis, so the idea of a "reasonable percentage" is meaningless. If the same chassis was a 40,000 amp, may be 4,000 would be reasonable. Just because it is a 170,000 amp does not all of a sudden make it a 17,000 job. What they appear to be saying loud and clear is "if some guy can afford to pay 170,000 for and amp, we can probably rip him off on the color option with impunity. Either that or it is a print error.

 

[Mike Lavigne]

Mike, the price of anodizing a chassis is entirely unrelated to the value/cost of electronics in the chassis, so the idea of a "reasonable percentage" is meaningless. If the same chassis was a 40,000 amp, may be 4,000 would be reasonable. Just because it is a 170,000 amp does not all of a sudden make it a 17,000 job. What they appear to be saying loud and clear is "if some guy can afford to pay 170,000 for and amp, we can probably rip him off on the color option with impunity. Either that or it is a print error.

i agree that from a stricktly cost basis that $17k is crazy.

but when we get into manufacturing multiples of cost, and super uber priced products, there is no logic anyway.

my only point is that anodizing to an exact shade or color with zero error is not trivial. more a time and effort cost than the actual part cost.

 

[A.wayne]

We anodize stuff all the time , color matching is a pain , we usually send back the ones off enough to notice , cost is based on weight or a size to weight ratio , i could fill a tractor trailer with 17k worth of anodized parts ..

17k to anodize an amplfier chassis is absurd ...

 

[A.wayne]

I doubt if it cost them more than $1,000 to anodize them. More like $500. But why not add a 20x+ mark up? Makes you wonder how much mark up is on the amp itself?

Im sure you could muster up a guess .....

 

[FrantzM]

i know that in the case of my dart 458's that the anodizing is not a trivial step. it involves multiple attempts sometimes due to color mismatches and other challenges. the QC for products like this has to be pretty much perfect. much of the delay in getting my darts was this process.

so adding 10% for different color is not as crazy as it might seem it should be.

You're joking? Right? ... I would grant anyone their rights to say their circuits is so special that their amplifier is priced at $300,000 Euros or over (see FM Acoustics, Wavac, etc.) I will play dumb and accept that they have discovered new things in circuit design that warrant the (absurd) price but here we are talking about anodizing .. Nothing extraordinary it has been performed for hundred of years, well almost Simple , cheap and well known... It is trivial, The color is reached with dyes , available almost anywhere.. Color mismatch???

Indeed, let's not be carried away by our audiophile enthusiasm here

There is no rational justification for the black case costing $23,000 more
As an aside: Isn't that the price of the Dar Tzeel Integrated amp BTW? Incidentally?

 

[asiufy]

Guys, it's 9k euros for the stereo (1 piece), and 17k euros for the monos (2 pieces).
Still, that's a lot of money

And I've been to the place where the darTZeel gear is anodised. It's one thing to do this process in huge batches, and it's another to do 2-3 pieces. And if you're strict, like Hervé is, and you return 3 out of the 2, you need to wait until the factory is willing to do your parts again, for more cost, etc...

Incidentally, I thought Boulder did the CNC and anodising in-house... Didn't they claim they do everything in-house, down to the bolts?


alexandre

 

[edorr]

You're joking? Right? ... I would grant anyone their rights to say their circuits is so special that their amplifier is priced at $300,000 Euros or over (see FM Acoustics, Wavac, etc.) I will play dumb and accept that they have discovered new things in circuit design that warrant the (absurd) price but here we are talking about anodizing .. Nothing extraordinary it has been performed for hundred of years, well almost Simple , cheap and well known... It is trivial, The color is reached with dyes , available almost anywhere.. Color mismatch???

Indeed, let's not be carried away by our audiophile enthusiasm here

There is no rational justification for the black case costing $23,000 more
As an aside: Isn't that the price of the Dar Tzeel Integrated amp BTW? Incidentally?

If someone desings / builds and amp that provides a unique level of musical enjoyment (unattainable with other electronics), charges $300,000 and finds some willing buyers, the cost of building the amp is immaterial. This is called value based pricing. Different scenario. No problem with that at all.

If someone anodizes an amp at say cost of $1,000 and sells the option for $17,000 that is called a rip off. There is no unique differentiating value in the color option. Since the particualr rip off is not a deceptive trade practice (no deceit involved), if Boulder can find suckers to spend the $17,000 I don't really have a problem with it either.

 

[Steve williams]

Is there a charge for anodizing the Dart 458?

 

[ack]

If someone desings / builds and amp that provides a unique level of musical enjoyment (unattainable with other electronics), charges $300,000 and finds some willing buyers, the cost of building the amp is immaterial. This is called value based pricing. Different scenario. No problem with that at all.

If someone anodizes an amp at say cost of $1,000 and sells the option for $17,000 that is called a rip off. There is no unique differentiating value in the color option. Since the particualr rip off is not a deceptive trade practice (no deceit involved), if Boulder can find suckers to spend the $17,000 I don't really have a problem with it either.

But... but... it's for _two_! How hard it is to build reputation and how easy to quickly lose it.

 

[andromedaaudio]

To me it doesnt look like the boulder 3000 series or other series are anodized aluminium , my amps chassis look like powdercoated aluminium , for the powder coat process the aluminium goes into an oven , anodisation is a chemical process if i am not mistaken.
Why the black is so expensive i dont know , ...... if you go black you never go back .

from the bouldersite:

The three section chassis design (left audio,
right audio, and digital) removes any interference
between the analog and digital sections. An elegant
combination of stainless steel, aluminum and powder
coating complements any decor

http://www.boulderamp.com/pdf/2020DataSheet.pdf

 

[vinylphilemag]

Incidentally, I thought Boulder did the CNC and anodising in-house... Didn't they claim they do everything in-house, down to the bolts?
alexandre

I visited the Boulder factory at last year's RMAF. They definitely make everything in-house (although I can't recall whether the anodizing is done in-house), certainly the CNC stuff. The silver amps aren't anodized; they're blasted with little glass beads, which are so fine they look like powder.

 

[Mike Lavigne]

Is there a charge for anodizing the Dart 458?

no Steve. the anodizing of the 458's is standard at the list price. no upcharge for it. not that it's cheap to begin with.

my reference to anodizing the 458's had to do with the issue of getting the anodizing perfect. i know that Herve has rejected 'non-perfect' anodized parts which did delay delivery of my 458's. i don't personally know how difficult it is to perfectly anodize aluminum. but it must not be that easy if a machine shop in Switzerland struggles with it. the metal workmanship there is typically second to none.

 

[mep]

Anodizing metal is a chemical bath process. Aluminum has to be cleaned normally through another dipping process before it can be welded, anodized, or powder coated. Other metals like SS can be welded with no problems without the cleaning process that aluminum has to go through. It's also much harder to weld aluminum than SS. Less talented welders will give you a bunch of *grapes* along the weld seam. In another life, I worked with some very talented welders and some not so talented welders.

 

[Roysen]

Anodizing metal is a chemical bath process. Aluminum has to be cleaned normally through another dipping process before it can be welded, anodized, or powder coated. Other metals like SS can be welded with no problems without the cleaning process that aluminum has to go through. It's also much harder to weld aluminum than SS. Less talented welders will give you a bunch of *grapes* along the weld seam. In another life, I worked with some very talented welders and some not so talented welders.

I think we might have to accept that there are different levels of quality to anodizing. This is not just in terms of color but also of the surface. I remember talking to Yair Tammam when the Q5 was introduced to the market. I asked if they could make custom versions of the Q-Series speakers in another color. Mr. Tammam asked me to to step up to one of the speakers and run my hand against the anodized surface of the cabinet. "Can you feel how smooth it is?", he asked me. "We can't make that quality of anodizing in another color at the moment", he told me. After that I always feel the quality of the surface the same way when checking out products with anodized cabinets. I have since learned to appriciate that outstanding anodizing quality on the products especially from Magico and darTZeel, which has a similar quality, have a different texture on the surface than most other even high end components. If this is a result of some special process or just a lot of rejected cabinet parts, I don't know. However since Boulder does not anodize its standard cabinets and if they want to get the same result as Magico and darTZeel, I can assume its a substantial extra cost.

Having said that, the extra price for black anodized from Boulder seems high.

 

[andromedaaudio]

Roysen youre mixing up the techniques , anodisation is a completely different process than powdercoating , boulder could anodise their products anytime but choose not to , and so could magico do it either way , different colours of anodisation is no problem , and i doubt it would cost extra (i will soon find out and ask the company that will do it on my product )
Its more like getting tiles or wood on your floor it aint the same thing .
Regarding the comments of mr tammam i find that hard to believe , ading a black dye to the anodisation process or a red one , doesnt sound like a big problem , but i am gonna ask pretty soon for a fact

By the way the finish on boulder is second to none and yes i have seen some Q series speakers from close by , its on parr

 

[FrantzM]

I think we might have to accept that there are different levels of quality to anodizing. This is not just in terms of color but also of the surface. I remember talking to Yair Tammam when the Q5 was introduced to the market. I asked if they could make custom versions of the Q-Series speakers in another color. Mr. Tammam asked me to to step up to one of the speakers and run my hand against the anodized surface of the cabinet. "Can you feel how smooth it is?", he asked me. "We can't make that quality of anodizing in another color at the moment", he told me. After that I always feel the quality of the surface the same way when checking out products with anodized cabinets. I have since learned to appriciate that outstanding anodizing quality on the products especially from Magico and darTZeel, which has a similar quality, have a different texture on the surface than most other even high end components. If this is a result of some special process or just a lot of rejected cabinet parts, I don't know. However since Boulder does not anodize its standard cabinets and if they want to get the same result as Magico and darTZeel, I can assume its a substantial extra cost.

Having said that, the extra price for black anodized from Boulder seems high.

Thank you! Boulder will sure appreciate your political correctness.

@edorr
I am with you. If a person decided that having the amp in black is worth $23,000 additional eek, more power to Boulder ... for now. I think (naively perhaps) that such practices slowly ebb at a manufacturer reputation. For now the audiophile world seems to be comfortable, even accepting of the continuous increasing prices of their gear. Let's wait and see how long this will go on before even those with substantial means no longer are able to afford their favored gears. What with loudspeakers creeping toward the 1/2 million of dollars mark and equipment rack moving toward the $50K mark as per Magico M-Rack or the trend-setting $35,000 tonearm. I do think this time is nearing.

 

[edorr]

Thank you! Boulder will sure appreciate your political correctness.

@edorr
I am with you. If a person decided that having the amp in black is worth $23,000 additional eek, more power to Boulder ... for now. I think (naively perhaps) that such practices slowly ebb at a manufacturer reputation. For now the audiophile world seems to be comfortable, even accepting of the continuous increasing prices of their gear. Let's wait and see how long this will go on before even those with substantial means no longer are able to afford their favored gears. What with loudspeakers creeping toward the 1/2 million of dollars mark and equipment rack moving toward the $50K mark as per Magico M-Rack or the trend-setting $35,000 tonearm. I do think this time is nearing.

I think affordability per we will not be the issue - Ferrari is doing just dandy. It is about brand image. If I were ever in a position to afford this level gear, I would avoid brands who's marketing strategy is demonstrably based on taking they clients for suckers and screwing them.