An entire hi-res system in two boxes...maybe 3...

[Phelonious Ponk]

I'm putting this in "Digital" to hopefully avoid it devolving into another digital vs analog discussion. If the mods want to move it to General Audio, that's fine.

In another thread, Gregadd suggested that...

I googled your system and think your approach to music reproduction would make for an interesting thread.

The approach he's talking about is "all in one," and the system in question is the English company, AVi's ADM 9.1. The 9.1 system puts a SOTA Wolfson DAC, a very simple, quiet remote-controlled preamp, active crossovers, two 75 watt A/B amps (one for each 1" silk dome tweeter) and two 250 watt (one for each 6.5" treated paper woofer) A/B amps in two smallish bookshelf speaker boxes. In my case, I just plug in my MacBook pro and play. There are analog inputs as well, so you can bi-pass the DAC and use a CDP (or another DAC) if you wish.

The thing is, it wasn't the all-in-one aspect of the system that drew me to it, it was the active design. When I discovered AVi and the 9.1s, and became friends with the president of the company (there's your full disclosure) I was already on the path of building a speaker system around a pair of studio monitors and a DAC/pre. I was looking at JBLs, Klien and Hummels, Dynaudios, Genelecs and quite a few more. The DAC/pre list was a bit narrower, and I was just trying to decide if I wanted to get the portable headphone amp in the Apogee Duet, or the absolute (and possibly inaudible) performance of the Benchmark DAC/pre. FWIW, I was leaning toward the Benchmark.

I decided to give the 9.1s a try when I realized I could get a pair, and a complete system in a more domestic-friendly package, for less than the price of the Benchmark alone. I took a risk and ordered them sound unheard. Did it pay off? I think so, but this is not meant to be a review, so I'll quote a recent one from Andrew Everard of Gramaphone, which I think summarizes the 9.1s very well:

They deliver a persuasive, well proportioned sound stage when used at conventional listening distances of a few meteres and even when used close-up on a desk astride a computer manage to avoid that "big headphones" effect. There's space, air and ambience in the sound, and no sign of excessive brightness or spit, even when they're listened to "near-field."

In fact, the only drawback is some lack of bass extension: even the manufacturer's specification show them as being down 6dB at 60Hz...

Again, I don't mean to write a review of the 9.1s, so I won't mention them again. What I'd like to do, instead, is testify for an approach. I looked at a lot of active monitors in my search, mostly built around 6" to 6.5" woofers, as I tended to like the midrange much better in these than I did in examples with larger woofers. The best of them had something remarkable to offer: Very high-end, high-resolution performance at a fraction of high-end prices. Arguably, active designs, with individual amps engineered to drive individual speakers and none of the inherent distortions of passive crossovers, offer even better performance than most of the high end, but that's another subject.

What active monitors don't deliver is that last octave, and the sheer scale of big floor-standers. But a well-integrated sub or two addresses the first problem and a reasonably-sized listening room addresses the second. If your listening room is less than cavernous, the approach deserves consideration, I think. I'd start here:

JBLs for a very neutral approach.

Dynaudios for a slightly warmer, smoother presentation.

Klein and Hummels for brighter, more "detailed" sound.

Or if you're in the UK, try to find someplace to hear the AVis. They mostly sell direct, but there are a few dealers.

P

 

[Gregadd]

I find it is extremely difficult to get the average person to sit in the dark and and listen CD after CD. The average person sees a stereo as background music. It seems to me most are investing their money in cellphones and computers. Because we already have them sitting in front of their computers, and they are already downloading music this might get them involved. They have music playing in the background while they "tweet" or update their "facebook" page. Inevitably they will follow the upgrade path wherever it takes them.

When it comes to high end we are quickly approaching the ceiling. I recall how I lamented when bike shops went to 90% mountain and recreational bikes. I talked to the bike shop owner. He replied that those bikes kept in business. When Lance Armstrong kept winning the Tour de France slowly the racing /road bike crept back in.

If you want the best you can go to the something like the Meridian Active Speakers and SOOLOOO music server. http://www.jsaudio.com/index.php?module=LinkList&catID=3. It may not be for you but certainly you can see its efficacy.

 

[Gregadd]

The college season is fast approaching. This is an excellent idea for a dorm system. When my nieces and nephews invited me to their July 4th barbecue, they had a music sever and live music. No more changing records.

 

[JackD201]

Speakers, DAC, Amps, remote, USB input, analog inputs for about a grand.

Not bad at all.

 

[RUR]

Speakers, DAC, Amps, remote, USB input, analog inputs for about a grand.

Not bad at all.

From $2,250, sans sub. Add $1,750 for their sub.

What's Mark asking for his new actives?

 

[Albertporter]

I'm putting this in "Digital" to hopefully avoid it devolving into another digital vs analog discussion. If the mods want to move it to General Audio, that's fine.

In another thread, Gregadd suggested that...



The approach he's talking about is "all in one," and the system in question is the English company, AVi's ADM 9.1. The 9.1 system puts a SOTA Wolfson DAC, a very simple, quiet remote-controlled preamp, active crossovers, two 75 watt A/B amps (one for each 1" silk dome tweeter) and two 250 watt (one for each 6.5" treated paper woofer) A/B amps in two smallish bookshelf speaker boxes. In my case, I just plug in my MacBook pro and play. There are analog inputs as well, so you can bi-pass the DAC and use a CDP (or another DAC) if you wish.

The thing is, it wasn't the all-in-one aspect of the system that drew me to it, it was the active design. When I discovered AVi and the 9.1s, and became friends with the president of the company (there's your full disclosure) I was already on the path of building a speaker system around a pair of studio monitors and a DAC/pre. I was looking at JBLs, Klien and Hummels, Dynaudios, Genelecs and quite a few more. The DAC/pre list was a bit narrower, and I was just trying to decide if I wanted to get the portable headphone amp in the Apogee Duet, or the absolute (and possibly inaudible) performance of the Benchmark DAC/pre. FWIW, I was leaning toward the Benchmark.

I decided to give the 9.1s a try when I realized I could get a pair, and a complete system in a more domestic-friendly package, for less than the price of the Benchmark alone. I took a risk and ordered them sound unheard. Did it pay off? I think so, but this is not meant to be a review, so I'll quote a recent one from Andrew Everard of Gramaphone, which I think summarizes the 9.1s very well:



Again, I don't mean to write a review of the 9.1s, so I won't mention them again. What I'd like to do, instead, is testify for an approach. I looked at a lot of active monitors in my search, mostly built around 6" to 6.5" woofers, as I tended to like the midrange much better in these than I did in examples with larger woofers. The best of them had something remarkable to offer: Very high-end, high-resolution performance at a fraction of high-end prices. Arguably, active designs, with individual amps engineered to drive individual speakers and none of the inherent distortions of passive crossovers, offer even better performance than most of the high end, but that's another subject.

What active monitors don't deliver is that last octave, and the sheer scale of big floor-standers. But a well-integrated sub or two addresses the first problem and a reasonably-sized listening room addresses the second. If your listening room is less than cavernous, the approach deserves consideration, I think. I'd start here:

JBLs for a very neutral approach.

Dynaudios for a slightly warmer, smoother presentation.

Klein and Hummels for brighter, more "detailed" sound.

Or if you're in the UK, try to find someplace to hear the AVis. They mostly sell direct, but there are a few dealers.

P

Good thread, interesting perspective and honesty stated.

 

[amirm]

Love the thread and general approach. As with the page linked above, I have always thought that the most integrated systems will sound better than discreets.

That said, the system I have been eying is the new Genelec 8260a. It improves on this concept thusly: http://www.genelec.com/8260a/

1. Built-in DSP with full room and speaker correction.

2. Extended response down to 26 Hz (-3db).

3. 3-way design all the way including separate DACs.

Unfortunately it is premium priced and not yet available. Rumor is > $4K and fall of this year for availability.

The AVI then fills a nice gap below this tier. I just wish they would offer some kind of DSP correction.

 

[Gregadd]

Let's talk tech!

A little help here. Is this the same as a music server? How does it actually work. Where do you get your music from? Don you need some sort of buffer from your computer to the speaker? What is a DSP? Sorry if I am behind the digital curve.

 

[RUR]

A little help here. Is this the same as a music server? How does it actually work. Where do you get your music from? Don you need some sort of buffer from your computer to the speaker? What is a DSP? Sorry if I am behind the digital curve.

Digital Signal Processing i.e. manipulating the signal in the digital domain.

8260A features Genelec DSP signal processing responsible for all loudspeaker functions, such as the crossover filters, driver equalizers, driver position alignment, room response alignment, calibration, and equalization related filters as well as distance compensating delays.

http://www.genelec.com/products/8260a-2/

The speakers are directly connected to a source with digital output e.g. computer, server or CD transport via Toslink.

 

[FrantzM]

HI

Interesting approach. One I believe will come to be taken seriously by audiophiles, myself included ... I am still fond of separates, however more logical the integrated approach seems on a pure technical viewpoint ...
It is slowly but surely dawning on audiophiles that the room is 89.5% of their audio system performance and there, active speakers coupled with Room Correction and speaker correction DSP are the next step in elevating Audio Reproduction performance level... DAC that are directly driving the speakers are here to stay. It will likely take some time for these to take hold but I see this as the next logical step...

Plus it bears repeating today's High-End Audio pricing strategy is on a collision course with reality ... We will see more and more audiophiles take that , less expensive but potentially more rewarding course ...

I have the Benchmark and it sounds (sighted) better than the Apogee mini-DAC IMHO ..

 

[amirm]

A little help here. Is this the same as a music server?

It is the "back-end" portion of the music server which converts digital to analog, amplifies it, and plays it in the speakers. To build a music server, you need to provide the PC ("server") part of this equation. That box, can be either the Mac or the PC plus some sort of digital output.

Note that the products mentioned here are one paradigm of interconnect where you have a direct connection from the PC to the DAC. The other method uses a home network to connect the two, allowing the PC/music to sit anywhere. In this scenario, the DAC "pulls" the content from storage. In the scenario mentioned here, the data is pushed to the DAC. The former is advantageous in theory although there are schemes to make the latter look like the former(!).

How does it actually work. Where do you get your music from?

In case of CDs, you "rip" them to your PC hard disk and you are done. There are by the way, specialized audiophile tools as always . But fortunately they are free.

You can then augment your library with downloaded content which exceed CD spec in resolution and bit depth.

Don you need some sort of buffer from your computer to the speaker?

No. The computer acts like a normal CD player would, sending the real-time stream to the DAC/amp/speaker.

What is a DSP? Sorry if I am behind the digital curve.

This was already explained by RUR. But expanding, the term is generic and basically means a specialized computer designed for audio processing. That by itself though, doesn't say much. You have to look at what functionality is implemented using DSP. Room correction and speaker alignment are two advanced applications.

 

[Phelonious Ponk]

Amir -- I haven't heard the Genelecs mentioned above, but in general, and after a lot of listening, I found that I got the best clarity and balance from two-ways in the 5.5 - 6.5 inch range. To go deeper, I'd add a sub, not go 3-way. YMMV. I'm not personally sold on digital room compensation yet, except perhaps for removing bass nodes, but YMMV on that one too. My belief is that which alters the reflected sound alters the direct sound, and that's not good. Easy for me to say, though, I listen in the near field, so I don't have to deal with it.

Gregadd - A digital music server is a computer, by another name. I use a MacBook pro, a couple of external drives full of lossless file, a Trends UD-10 which takes usb from my Mac and sends optical to my ADM 9.1s and coax to my headphone system, which not only provides the translation, but isolates and re-clocks in the process. Currently, I'm just using iTunes. I've tried both Amarra and Pure Music and didn't hear a difference playing 16/44.1, which is 99% of my library. If you had a lot of hi-rez files, they could be very useful, because both provide automatic switching.

A dorm system? I suppose. I listen to them in the near field and in a small room, but they don't approach anything close to their headroom limits. I've also had them set up in a 15 X 20 ft room in the house, where they will reach concert volume without straining. And that's without a sub. And the ADMs are only a bit more powerful than most of the monitors I auditioned. IMHO, with a sub or two, this is a solution that competes, even exceeds high-end floor-stander and separates systems costing thousands more. There are a lot of savings in the design approach and a lot of performance advantages in the engineering to explain how that happens. I'd be happy to give it a shot at some point, but there are people on this board who could explain it better than I.

P

 

[Gregadd]

'...A dorm system? I suppose. I listen to them in the near field and in a small room, but they don't approach anything close to their headroom limits. I've also had them set up in a 15 X 20 ft room in the house, where they will reach concert volume without straining. And that's without a sub..."

P Wen I say dorm system I am thinking small physical footprint and reasonable cost. I have a mini system that plays plenty loud. It consists of a two Yamaha mini-monitors and two Yamha powered subs driven by a combo cd/tuner/mp3/40watt/amp. total cost around $900. I guess I could add an outboard dac. Normally we think small speaker small sound. It ain't necessarily so.

 

[Phelonious Ponk]

'...A dorm system? I suppose. I listen to them in the near field and in a small room, but they don't approach anything close to their headroom limits. I've also had them set up in a 15 X 20 ft room in the house, where they will reach concert volume without straining. And that's without a sub..."

P Wen I say dorm system I am thinking small physical footprint and reasonable cost. I have a mini system that plays plenty loud. It consists of a two Yamaha mini-monitors and two Yamha powered subs driven by a combo cd/tuner/mp3/40watt/amp. total cost around $900. I guess I could add an outboard dac. Normally we think small speaker small sound. It ain't necessarily so.

I listened to a lot of Yamahas on my quest as well. The inexpensive ones are a bit bright, but still very good for the money. The better pro monitors are more like JBLs or my AVis -- very resolving, very revealing, very balanced. Some would call them too revealing, but it can't be too revealing for my blood. I'll take the warts on the flawed recordings so I can get the best ones unmasked.

P

 

[JackD201]

From $2,250, sans sub. Add $1,750 for their sub.

What's Mark asking for his new actives?

Ah, I thought from PP's post it cost around the price of a benchmark. I must have read wrong. At 2,250 it has competition but still a pretty good deal.

 

[Phelonious Ponk]

Ah, I thought from PP's post it cost around the price of a benchmark. I must have read wrong. At 2,250 it has competition but still a pretty good deal.

AVi ADM 9.1s are currently 1125 Euros, or 1517 dollars, shipped to the use. A Benchmark DAC1/pre has a street price of about the same. They are a raging bargain.

P

 

[Vincent Kars]

A little help here. Is this the same as a music server? How does it actually work. Where do you get your music from? Don you need some sort of buffer from your computer to the speaker? What is a DSP? Sorry if I am behind the digital curve.

This is about active speakers, this is not related to music servers.

Most people have a passive speakers. It has 2 or 3 drivers and each covers a part of the audio range. In a 2 way system, the woofer will do the lower part, the tweeter the higher part. Feed the high part into the woofer and it probably produces some distortion, feed the bass into the tweeter and you will fry it.
So a crossover is needed, some coils and capacitor splitting the signal into a low and a high part.
Somewhere in the 80’s, the pro worlds discovered the advantage of a active crossover.
You split the signal but this time before it enters the power amp.
This allows for more precise and steeper filters like the famous 4th order Linkwitz-Riley at the expense of needing 1 amp per driver.
This is what we call active speakers.
In the pro-world active speakers are almost standard.

Today often our audio source is digital.
Why convert it to analogue, have a analogue active crossover if you can program this filters? This is called DSP, processing digital audio signals in the digital domain.
This requires a DAC + AMP per driver.

More details
Crossover: http://thewelltemperedcomputer.com/KB/Crossover.htm
Active crossover: http://thewelltemperedcomputer.com/HW/ActiveCrossover.htm
Active speakers: http://thewelltemperedcomputer.com/HW/ActiveSpeakers.htm

 

[steve williams]

Vincent

Thank you for a succinct and brilliant summary

 

[MylesBAstor]

'...A dorm system? I suppose. I listen to them in the near field and in a small room, but they don't approach anything close to their headroom limits. I've also had them set up in a 15 X 20 ft room in the house, where they will reach concert volume without straining. And that's without a sub..."

P Wen I say dorm system I am thinking small physical footprint and reasonable cost. I have a mini system that plays plenty loud. It consists of a two Yamaha mini-monitors and two Yamha powered subs driven by a combo cd/tuner/mp3/40watt/amp. total cost around $900. I guess I could add an outboard dac. Normally we think small speaker small sound. It ain't necessarily so.

I think that a pair of NOLA Boxers would go a long way too.

 

[Gregadd]

I think that a pair of NOLA Boxers would go a long way too.

I heard the NOLA with a tiny twenty-five watt tube amp at the Capitol Audiofest. Very good. For a college student I want bass. That means a sub.