Administrative Recommendation To Remedy Political Discussion and Ad Hominem Attacks

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If you want to get rid of all politics, then just get rid of any forums that are not audio related. Everything else of any real importance is political by definition, except maybe family or religion.
  • Love - important, not political
  • Sex - important, not political (unless you're some kind of total wierdo)
  • Health - important, not political (though many will take it there)
  • Friendships - important, not political (though politics has killed a few)
  • Food - important, not political
  • Recreational pursuits (audio, fishing, cycling, etc.) - important, not political
  • Libations - important to some, not political by nature
  • careers - very important (can get political because some folks find a way to get politics into everything)
(to name a few)
 

Ron Resnick

Site Co-Owner, Administrator
Jan 25, 2015
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. . . I don't believe you should ban every non audio subject . . .
We are not contemplating, and no one is suggesting, that we ban every non-audio subject. We have banned only politics.

We discuss here many non-audio subjects, including cars and movies and sports.
 
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Ron Resnick

Site Co-Owner, Administrator
Jan 25, 2015
8,200
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If you want to get rid of all politics, then just get rid of any forums that are not audio related. Everything else of any real importance is political by definition, except maybe family or religion.
We are not contemplating, and no one is suggesting, that we ban every subject that is not audio related. We have banned only politics.
 

ddk

Industry Expert
May 19, 2013
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  • Love - important, not political
  • Sex - important, not political (unless you're some kind of total wierdo)
  • Health - important, not political (though many will take it there)
  • Friendships - important, not political (though politics has killed a few)
  • Food - important, not political
  • Recreational pursuits (audio, fishing, cycling, etc.) - important, not political
  • Libations - important to some, not political by nature
  • careers - very important (can get political because some folks find a way to get politics into everything)
(to name a few)
Everything has a political context today and maybe that's problem Bob.
  • Love - important, not political
  • Sex - important, not political (unless you're some kind of total wierdo)
LBGT and Trans movement, tax payer sex change operations, religious and traditional views...
  • Health - important, not political (though many will take it there)
Obamacare, Single Payer, forced Taxpayer funded contraception...
  • Friendships - important, not political (though politics has killed a few)
Epstein!...:)
  • Food - important, not political
Global food initiatives controlling agricultural lands, healthy vs unhealthy bans of certain foods and beverages, cow meat in context of "Climate Control Agenda"...
  • Recreational pursuits (audio, fishing, cycling, etc.) - important, not political
Trophy hunting, Sports Shooting, 2nd amendment rights, pollution.
  • Libations - important to some, not political by nature
Religious restrictions, Islam, Islamophobia, addictions, criminal and social aspects when under the influence...
  • careers - very important (can get political because some folks find a way to get politics into everything)
Green jobs, careers in energy sector, arms manufacturing, education and student loans, free or not?...

To avoid that part of a topic is just insincere IMO so why bother?

david
 
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ALF

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Mar 15, 2012
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Let’s be real here. It’s a bunch of wealthy senior citizens on this site who can’t handle not being in control. They were always the bossman and would simply fire anyone in real life who didn’t agree with them. Now they have to revert back to their youth and run to mommy.
...well said dj; however, nothing wrong with being a senior citizen.

Does the above additionally award one penalty points:)

Cheers!
ALF
 

Steve Williams

Site Founder, Site Owner, Administrator
I agree, we should all be able to chat in a mature calm manner like with Audio
The problem is most people don’t know how to do such and the arguments spill over
 

Hi-FiGuy

Member Sponsor
Feb 24, 2015
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Why are you fanning the flames with a discussion of science versus facts? Do you really think that is helpful? :rolleyes:

We are not doing a separate politics forum. It is not up for discussion.
Its a discussion of perceived facts versus perceived facts.

Please re-read my post. I simply stated the fact that ANYONE can find "facts" and "science" to support their side of the SAME issue. There are Scientists the believe in climate change and support it with their facts and there are Scientists that do not believe in climate change and support it with their facts.

Who is right and who is wrong and this is where we go sideways. We then start shouting and screaming like children that our facts are right and the others are wrong and maybe if we keep screaming louder than the next guy it will somehow come true for all.

There is no fan flaming going on here, just an observation on how we wind up here every once and awhile. There is no finger pointing or name calling.

Any post with the environment/government/current events in it is going to wind up here every single time...EVERY!
There is two or three sides to every issue and either side is going to support it with their own "facts". Its pretty simple.

So the second you see the post, you must delete the entire illegal by TOS thread immediately. I am quite sure you have a fairly good sized "offending post" notification group here so it shouldn't take long to be alerted moving forward.

Some people cant handle or truly do not understand the meaning of free speech and that leads to dangerous waters when it is squashed.

All that being said I love this place and the people that are here. I personally do not start any political posts, but I sure as hell wont run from one once its out there.

I "feel" that there are so many posts here that are baiting posts and it does not take long for it to take off like a wild fire.

If there is one word on this planet I despise its "ban" , it is one of the most political, divisive and arrogant words in existence.

So moving forward when an illegal violation of TOS thread shows up, just delete it, the whole thread and move on. Do not threaten/warn/ban or even feel you have to explain to anybody or justify. Just delete it and be silent if you feel it is in violation. After awhile they will naturally stop. Its your site, you do not have to answer to anybody.

We all agreed to the TOS.
 

Ron Resnick

Site Co-Owner, Administrator
Jan 25, 2015
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730
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. . . I "feel" that there are so many posts here that are baiting posts and it does not take long for it to take off like a wild fire.

If there is one word on this planet I despise its "ban" , it is one of the most political, divisive and arrogant words in existence.

.

Please let Steve or me or a moderator know when you see a baiting post.

I am a libertarian, so I don’t like bans either. But I like politics adulterating this forum even less.
 

Hi-FiGuy

Member Sponsor
Feb 24, 2015
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Greater Phoenix Area
Anything can be made political, anything.
What happens when we start caring about where the raw resources are coming from to produce our audio toys and the manufacturing/emissions/waste and possible labor law violations?

Grass huts and caves for everyone!
 
Feb 8, 2011
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Vancouver Island, B.C. Canada
This thread exists because of Climate Changes, Global Warming, EV versus ICE, Extreme Weather (California, Australia), and other threads, but mainly the last one started two years ago about 15,000 scientists and their message to humanity.

I too thought that science on temperatures of the planet is an important subject for intelligent people. I understand today better the divisions. I know also that the majority could have a great discussion on this important matter. And I too feel sad that it is taboo, condemned, bashed, ...as if science on climate changes was baloney.

The saddest thing is to take it to the extreme and insult other people with names.
There is zero need for that.

And of course leave politics out of it as best you can. Discuss the topic, the science, the stats, the changes in weather patterns for the last few years, twenty years, fifty, ...
The oil supporters sure they object to science, it goes against their financial interests, there's nothing new about that, except that it is slowly starting to change with electric cars and trucks, with solar power...more and more (California and Australia), wind turbines (across the globe), etc., etc., etc.

We are in 2020, there are 7.65 billion of us, we need more and cleaner water, clean water and good food for everyone, cleaner air, less pollution, more trees, ...all excellent things for distortion-less sound systems and more Classical music without words of anarchy, revolt, statements, and all that cancer that is devouring humanity.

That's all, it's so simple. And true too, audio has also some roots in the underworld.
Between science and extreme sensorial pleasure from music listening I prefer the emotional character of the later. The former is a primer, a standard, a guide that could lead to the later.
Can we separate them? Of course we can, we just did few years ago, and it works admirably...from my observation viewing tower desk.

It would be tough for me to just talk audio, without artist musicians, tango dancing, Opera and chorales, church crhoirs in this Christmas season, without talking about films and documentaries, about the latest shows, the latest technological developments in visuals and acoustics.

The climate today is in OLED, 5G, 8K, tangential linear tonearms, best classical music recordings (yes we resurrect the love, us right here), and everything else that is affected directly or indirectly by trends in our systems.

Are there members here who think that the melting of polar ice caps and permafrost and the reduction of Artic ice and glaciers and icebergs is a hoax?

* One thing I learned the hard way here since Ron joined the ranks of administration is don't step out of line with anything that don't fit his strong principles...No Politics whatsoever, nothing too sexy, or you gonna pay very dearly.

Earlier David mentioned one thread started by Steve. Very true what he said, and that balance in all fairness is exemplary of our season of discordances occasionally.
What counts is using common sense in discussions and we all know the rest ...

Tim and Francisco I've read clearly your posts, I weight each single word fairly, emotionless, strictly on a scientific point of view.
Here's what I think; you are free to participate or not in the discussions of the subjects of your interests. You are like mentors to me, what's best in life, in audio, in hiend audiophile life, in best music reproduction @ home, etc. It's the safe zone, ultra high end audio...no violence, no guns, no knives, no drugs, no sex, no excesses, no religions, universel audiophile contentement, no suffocation mainly liberation, no stress, no political bullshit. And certainly no scientific changes on this planet's temperatures.
I think I know more today than yesterday your main interests and lesser ones.
It's all perfectly fine. Films for example, good films, films with amazing music scores (Joker), great documentaries, educative docs, important historic docs, ...you don't usually frequent those threads, those forum sections, and it's 100% fine, even if I was wishing sometimes that you share your opinion on our history and culture, not just North American but Universal.

Tesla, world oil industry, fires, hurricanes, space debris, black holes, bitcoin, Apple, Google, Microsoft, Amazon. Iceland, Brazil, world geographical regions, travels, volcano eruptions, New Zealand, Mexico, Porsche, Ferrari, Rolls Royce, Rolex, Mercedes, Jaguar, ... an infinity of toys and subjects that interest ultra hi-end audiophiles from the five corners of our square planet ...

Without bad weather there's no high-end audio. A figure of speech to say that when it's raining and cold outside it's more pleasant inside listening to audiophile music from a hi-fi stereo kit.

No, it's where each person takes it that's where the journey begins and never ends ...
 
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Hi-FiGuy

Member Sponsor
Feb 24, 2015
1,856
429
315
Greater Phoenix Area
This thread exists because of Climate Changes, Global Warming, EV versus ICE, Extreme Weather (California, Australia), and other threads, but mainly the last one started two years ago about 15,000 scientists and their message to humanity.

I too thought that science on temperatures of the planet is an important subject for intelligent people. I understand today better the divisions. I know also that the majority could have a great discussion on this important matter. And I too feel sad that it is taboo, condemned, bashed, ...as if science on climatd changes was baloney.

The saddest thing is to take it to the extreme and insult other people with names.
There is zero need for that.

And of course leave politics out of it as best you can. Discuss the topic, the science, the stats, the changes in weather patterns for the last few years twenty years, fifty, ...
The oil supporters sure they object to science, it goes against their financial interests, there's nothing new about that, except that it is slowly starting to change with electric cars and trucks, with solar power...more and more (California and Australia), wind turbines (across the globe), etc., etc., etc.

We are in 2020, there are 7.65 billion of us, we need more and cleaner water, clean water and good food for everyone, cleaner air, less pollution, more trees, ...all excellent things for distortion-less sound systems and more Classical music without words of anarchy, revolt, statements, and all that cancer that is devouring humanity.

That's all, it's so simple. And true too, audio has also some roots in the underworld.
Between science and extreme sensorial pleasure from music listening I prefer the emotional character of the later. The former is a primer, a standard, a guide that could lead to the later.
Can we separate them? Of course we can, we just did few years ago, and it works admirably...from my observation viewing tower desk.

It would be tough for me to just talk audio, without artist musicians, tango dancing, Opera and chorales, church choirs in this Christmas season, without talking about films and documentaries, about the latest shows, the latest technological developments in visuals and acoustics.

The climate today is in OLED, 5G, 8K, tangential tonearm, best classical music recordings (yes we resurrect the love, us right here), and everything else that is affected directly or indirectly by trends in our systems.

Are there members here who think that the melting of polar caps and permafrost and the reduction of Artic ice and glaciers and icebergs is a hoax?
Bob
Like I said the problem is anyone can find "facts" to support their own side of an issue. That is where we go sideways.
The end.

P.S. you brought the politics right back into it with your last sentence.
 
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Feb 8, 2011
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Bob
Like I said the problem is anyone can find "facts" to support their own side of an issue. That is where we go sideways.
The end.

P.S. you brought the politics right back into it with your last sentence.
I understand what you're saying Mike.

P.S. I slightly edited my post; my last sentence is about each life's journey, following our own current to wherever it leads us.
 

Folsom

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Oct 26, 2015
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I have a thought... what about a private section for long standing members, not viewable to the public? If you want to post a hot button thing, that’s the only place to so it - but the same keep it civil and no blatant political bating applies (that has been the norm till this topic).

Honestly though I don’t care much either way. But as pointed out by others, it’s nearly impossible to truly keep all things apolitical. And it’s a huge problem when one person feels they are apolitical, and others feel like they’re just flinging poo in their face because “they're correct” (according to themselves/like-minded) so its fine to say it.

My experience is that since Blizzard and Amir left, even the steamy things that come up on the board are relatively friendly even though some tension arises. I personally think the forum is very impressive for keeping it so civil - my compliments to all. The truly worst thing I’ve seen posted here any time recently was Tango suggesting Linkin Park as playable rock music...
 

Tango

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The truly worst thing I’ve seen posted here any time recently was Tango suggesting Linkin Park as playable rock music...
I almost spilled my coffee reading this. A laugh starting the day is precious.
I would like to remind all friends there are other interesting threads beside this one. You all have a great day.

Tang :)
 
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Hi-FiGuy

Member Sponsor
Feb 24, 2015
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The truly worst thing I’ve seen posted here any time recently was Tango suggesting Linkin Park as playable rock music...
Not a damn thing wrong with limited amounts of Lincoln Park at extremely loud levels!
Another one is Judas Priest Stained Class album, it will stir you internally every time, highly addictive!
 

cjfrbw

Well-Known Member
Apr 20, 2010
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Let’s be real here. It’s a bunch of wealthy senior citizens on this site who can’t handle not being in control. They were always the bossman and would simply fire anyone in real life who didn’t agree with them. Now they have to revert back to their youth and run to mommy.
LOL!
 

the sound of Tao

Well-Known Member
Jul 18, 2014
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Everything has a political context today and maybe that's problem Bob.
  • Love - important, not political
  • Sex - important, not political (unless you're some kind of total wierdo)
LBGT and Trans movement, tax payer sex change operations, religious and traditional views...
  • Health - important, not political (though many will take it there)
Obamacare, Single Payer, forced Taxpayer funded contraception...
  • Friendships - important, not political (though politics has killed a few)
Epstein!...:)
  • Food - important, not political
Global food initiatives controlling agricultural lands, healthy vs unhealthy bans of certain foods and beverages, cow meat in context of "Climate Control Agenda"...
  • Recreational pursuits (audio, fishing, cycling, etc.) - important, not political
Trophy hunting, Sports Shooting, 2nd amendment rights, pollution.
  • Libations - important to some, not political by nature
Religious restrictions, Islam, Islamophobia, addictions, criminal and social aspects when under the influence...
  • careers - very important (can get political because some folks find a way to get politics into everything)
Green jobs, careers in energy sector, arms manufacturing, education and student loans, free or not?...

To avoid that part of a topic is just insincere IMO so why bother?

david
Very much so. Everything important has implications that reach always into social order and governance. Every nation and every culture has its guidelines and rules and every nation has political structure. So if something is important enough to be worthy of any great discussion there’s always some level of attached issues of rights and responsibilities... even with everything... yes cars, sport, music, art, food, love, business.

All is ultimately governed so everything has the capacity to therefore be political. What it comes down to is what and how we write about a topic and whether we allow the issue to go across into the politics of the issue as well.

Anything with the very exception of politics itself can be discussed in an apolitical way. This is just a choice for us in terms of what we choose to write or say.

I very much agree with everyone that there is a danger in identifying that everything can therefore be political and interpreting that therefore all content in life is inherently political and that politics therefore can’t be avoided in a discussion. It is possible, it’s just a choice.

The politics of something is just a part of that something, it is not the whole thing itself nor is it even usually the significant part. Only pure politics is likely to actually be just purely political in itself.

It would be great if we could continue to grow into a place with more open, free, positive and constructive dialogue that is essentially free of us then falling into the trap of driving discussion into personal political agenda. Values and politics are sometimes enmeshed but just not exactly the same thing. It would be great if we were more values driven rather than ever politically driven. That is when I believe we are at our best.

Stopping discussions about any valuable thing is a sign of a poverty of cultural values. We are a crazily educated bunch here. Would be great to see us grow to even better reflect that in the respect and the standard of both our culture and the respectful acceptance of the views and values of others and a greater essential shift towards a broader and more shared human kindness.
 
Feb 8, 2011
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We are not contemplating, and no one is suggesting, that we ban every non-audio subject. We have banned only politics.

We discuss here many non-audio subjects, including cars and movies and sports.
We are not contemplating, and no one is suggesting, that we ban every subject that is not audio related. We have banned only politics.
For correction only ...
No, you have banned much more than just politics.
 

Ron Resnick

Site Co-Owner, Administrator
Jan 25, 2015
8,200
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730
Beverly Hills, CA
I have a thought... what about a private section for long standing members, not viewable to the public?

. . .
We do not want to create two classes of members.

I don’t see any reason to bend over backwards to create here any forum of politics. Everywhere else on the internet is teeming with politics and polarization. Even the Next Door app for Long Beach is filled with politics and partisanship and vitriol, when it should be the place to find lost dogs, get plumber recommendations and arrange neighbor wine and cheese parties.

Again, WBF is a peaceful refuge from politics, partisanship and political polarization. (Obviously analog/digital and solid-state/tubes polarization is welcome here. :D)
 

Folsom

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Oct 26, 2015
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We do not want to create two classes of members.

I don’t see any reason to bend over backwards to create here any forum of politics. Everywhere else on the internet is teeming with politics and polarization. Even the Next Door app for Long Beach is filled with politics and partisanship and vitriol, when it should be the place to find lost dogs, get plumber recommendations and arrange neighbor wine and cheese parties.

Again, WBF is a peaceful refuge from politics, partisanship and political polarization. (Obviously analog/digital and solid-state/tubes polarization is welcome here. :D)
I’m a bit peeved, I didn’t suggest an area for politics, just where things that edge on them could be. You also don’t advertise the secret section, for obvious reasons.
 
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