Sme 3012 R

pcosta · Aug 20, 2018

XV-1 said:
Sweet. how do you find the 3012-R vs the TW Raven tonearm?

cheers

christoph said:
how would you compare the 3012R with your TW arm?

I really like both arms and they both have attributes that I really enjoy and find right. Both are a bargain by today's standards when comparing arms of a minimum of $10K for a "good" tonearm. I have never done a direct comparison other that with my Kondo IO-M sounding better on the SME. The TW arms sounds like it has more speed or is quicker and tighter. But the SME is not slow or fat sounding. I have had at least a half dozen different 12" arms here over the years and the SME is the only one that does it all right. All the others sounded fatter and veiled in long term listening. It just goes about its business. Part of its sound I think is sticking to the cables and headshell. I tried the expensive Ortofon headshell with the Cadenza Mono and it sounded good, but when I installed the second arm and used the SME headshell with the Cadenza it sounded much better, more fullness and substance, bass became more powerful and I initially was not too impressed with that cart but I still may warm up to it.
As for the SME vs TW its nice to have both. The TW I like with a fuller meatier sounding cart like my Miyabi. The SME seems to accommodate anything I have used on it to date from Kondo, Lyra, SPU and Cadenza Mono. No other 12" arm I have had was that versatile and still sound interesting.

dminches · Aug 20, 2018

rockitman said:
I use both counterweights if I can. I try to get them as close to the pivot as possible. Only then will I remove one weight to get dynamic balance if the cart is too light.

When you say “both counterweights” are you referring to the balance and rider side weight? If so, which do you use if you only use one?

rockitman · Aug 20, 2018

dminches said:
When you say “both counterweights” are you referring to the balance and rider side weight? If so, which do you use if you only use one?

No...I’m talking about the two main counterweights...not the outrigger used to set final VTF. I believe more mass closer to the pivot is better than having less mass farther away towards the end of the arm tube.

dminches · Aug 20, 2018

rockitman said:
No...I’m talking about the two main counterweights...not the outrigger used to set final VTF. I believe more mass closer to the pivot is better than having less mass farther away towards the end of the arm tube.

Gotcha. My Miyajima Zero is less than 12 gms so I think I should remove one of the main counterweights so that it is close to the pivot.

PeterA · Aug 20, 2018

The closer to the pivot, the lower the moment of inertia, or force needed to move the arm from the end where the cartridge is. At least, that is how I understand it. However, this may not be best for all cartridges. I think it would depend on cartridge compliance and perhaps other factors. More total weight closer to the pivot versus less total weight further away means there is a difference in effective mass of arm because you are adding or removing weights. This would also affect total weight on that knife edge bearing. This is a complex condition and I don't know if one can generalize about which condition sounds best with all cartridges.

I'd be very curious to read David's thoughts on this specific topic.

christoph · Aug 21, 2018

pcosta said:
I really like both arms and they both have attributes that I really enjoy and find right. Both are a bargain by today's standards when comparing arms of a minimum of $10K for a "good" tonearm. I have never done a direct comparison other that with my Kondo IO-M sounding better on the SME. The TW arms sounds like it has more speed or is quicker and tighter. But the SME is not slow or fat sounding. I have had at least a half dozen different 12" arms here over the years and the SME is the only one that does it all right. All the others sounded fatter and veiled in long term listening. It just goes about its business. Part of its sound I think is sticking to the cables and headshell. I tried the expensive Ortofon headshell with the Cadenza Mono and it sounded good, but when I installed the second arm and used the SME headshell with the Cadenza it sounded much better, more fullness and substance, bass became more powerful and I initially was not too impressed with that cart but I still may warm up to it.
As for the SME vs TW its nice to have both. The TW I like with a fuller meatier sounding cart like my Miyabi. The SME seems to accommodate anything I have used on it to date from Kondo, Lyra, SPU and Cadenza Mono. No other 12" arm I have had was that versatile and still sound interesting.

Thank you very much for your elaborate answer.

XV-1 · Aug 21, 2018

Tango said:
This one was just not meant to be with you XV. If it is destined to be yours, even an elephant can’t pull it away from you.

Kindest regards,
Tang

Hi Tang. You must be some sort of guru mind reader with a six sense.

You hardly ever see 3012-R's in Australia. the day after another 3012-R came up from a local gentlemen in Sydney - ( very nice Tannoy Westminster system) I was able pick up the tonearm today and he even offered to set it up if I got stuck.

Tango · Aug 21, 2018

XV-1 said:
Hi Tang. You must be some sort of guru mind reader with a six sense.

You hardly ever see 3012-R's in Australia. the day after another 3012-R came up from a local gentlemen in Sydney - ( very nice Tannoy Westminster system) I was able pick up the tonearm today and he even offered to set it up if I got stuck.

View attachment 43427

Darn..that box looks brand new. You are a human magnet for this arm. Didn’t even have to drive so far out. Pls whisper to me when you find another one

.

Hope it gives excellent sound to your ears Shane.

Tang

pcosta · Aug 21, 2018

XV-1 said:
Hi Tang. You must be some sort of guru mind reader with a six sense.

You hardly ever see 3012-R's in Australia. the day after another 3012-R came up from a local gentlemen in Sydney - ( very nice Tannoy Westminster system) I was able pick up the tonearm today and he even offered to set it up if I got stuck.

View attachment 43427

Nice score!

XV-1 · Aug 21, 2018

pcosta said:
I really like both arms and they both have attributes that I really enjoy and find right. Both are a bargain by today's standards when comparing arms of a minimum of $10K for a "good" tonearm. I have never done a direct comparison other that with my Kondo IO-M sounding better on the SME. The TW arms sounds like it has more speed or is quicker and tighter. But the SME is not slow or fat sounding. I have had at least a half dozen different 12" arms here over the years and the SME is the only one that does it all right. All the others sounded fatter and veiled in long term listening. It just goes about its business. Part of its sound I think is sticking to the cables and headshell. I tried the expensive Ortofon headshell with the Cadenza Mono and it sounded good, but when I installed the second arm and used the SME headshell with the Cadenza it sounded much better, more fullness and substance, bass became more powerful and I initially was not too impressed with that cart but I still may warm up to it.
As for the SME vs TW its nice to have both. The TW I like with a fuller meatier sounding cart like my Miyabi. The SME seems to accommodate anything I have used on it to date from Kondo, Lyra, SPU and Cadenza Mono. No other 12" arm I have had was that versatile and still sound interesting.

thanks for this. I used to have an Ortofon AS-309S and it sounded similar to what you describe to the other 12 inch arms you have had - bloated, slow and boring.

Honestly, not sure what to expect from the 3012-R given my listening biases, but will keep my ears open and take my time - My TW sits unused most of the time as the Phantom does not get much use and my Thales moves between the Technics and the TW, but mainly with the Technics.

@Tango , Agree - it will be interesting to see how it sounds to my ears

The guy I bought the 3012-R also had a SME V on his Garrard 401, so he had interesting comments regarding the sound differences between each tonearm.

MadFloyd · Aug 21, 2018

Congrats, Shane! When will you attempt to install it and what cartridge will you use?

I have received my armboard. Now I just need Christian to take a 10 minute drive in one of his fast cars over to my house and show me how to setup this thing.

XV-1 · Aug 21, 2018

MadFloyd said:
Congrats, Shane! When will you attempt to install it and what cartridge will you use?

I have received my armboard. Now I just need Christian to take a 10 minute drive in one of his fast cars over to my house and show me how to setup this thing.

Thanks Floyd. On the weekend as I need to de-install my Phantom and then install the 3012-R. I have two SPU's that I will try first. Probably put Lyra Delos onto the SME headshell at some stage. I am not going to de-install my Atlas or Etna from the other tables any time soon, unless I am really loving what I am hearing from the 3012-R as its a PITA changing carts

Have fun with your 3012-R.

cheers

Tango · Aug 21, 2018

XV-1 said:
Thanks Floyd. On the weekend as I need to de-install my Phantom and then install the 3012-R. I have two SPU's that I will try first. Probably put Lyra Delos onto the SME headshell at some stage. I am not going to de-install my Atlas or Etna from the other tables any time soon, unless I am really loving what I am hearing from the 3012-R as its a PITA changing carts

Have fun with your 3012-R.

cheers

Sawasdee Shane,

I encourage you to try the AtlasSL on this SME. You will hear something not typical of what people lik to say about Atlas. It is a PITA but you can swallow it Shane.

Tang

microstrip · Aug 21, 2018

MadFloyd said:
Congrats, Shane! When will you attempt to install it and what cartridge will you use?

I have received my armboard. Now I just need Christian to take a 10 minute drive in one of his fast cars over to my house and show me how to setup this thing.

The SME manual is fabulous, very clear and detailed, including pictures of the assembly phase and set up. I am sure that you will be able to do it!

microstrip · Aug 21, 2018

XV-1 said:
(...) The guy I bought the 3012-R also had a SME V on his Garrard 401, so he had interesting comments regarding the sound differences between each tonearm.

Fortunately he is not a WBF reader or you would no have got your 3012-R.

Curious that I was recommended a Garrard 401 for the 3012-R - never finished assembling the ultra heavy plinth for it.

PeterA · Aug 21, 2018

MadFloyd said:
Congrats, Shane! When will you attempt to install it and what cartridge will you use?

I have received my armboard. Now I just need Christian to take a 10 minute drive in one of his fast cars over to my house and show me how to setup this thing.

You may want to order David's jigs for easy set up, or your Smartracker should be fine. I agree with Micro, SME manuals are excellent. What cartridge do you plan to try first?

Congratulations. You must be excited. It will be very interesting to hear how it compares to the arm that Louis recommends for his own table.

bonzo75 · Aug 21, 2018

microstrip said:
Fortunately he is not a WBF reader or you would no have got your 3012-R.

Heh

bonzo75 · Aug 21, 2018

XV-1 said:
thanks for this. I used to have an Ortofon AS-309S and it sounded similar to what you describe to the other 12 inch arms you have had - bloated, slow and boring.

Honestly, not sure what to expect from the 3012-R given my listening biases, but will keep my ears open and take my time - My TW sits unused most of the time as the Phantom does not get much use and my Thales moves between the Technics and the TW, but mainly with the Technics.

@Tango , Agree - it will be interesting to see how it sounds to my ears

The guy I bought the 3012-R also had a SME V on his Garrard 401, so he had interesting comments regarding the sound differences between each tonearm.

Congrats... Can you paraphrase the feedback?

MadFloyd · Aug 21, 2018

microstrip said:
The SME manual is fabulous, very clear and detailed, including pictures of the assembly phase and set up. I am sure that you will be able to do it!

Funny you say that. I'm struggling with the manual. Mine is a photocopy and the photos are so dark that I have trouble deciphering it. So I went online and found a PDF and it's also dark... lol.

MadFloyd · Aug 21, 2018

PeterA said:
You may want to order David's jigs for easy set up, or your Smartracker should be fine. I agree with Micro, SME manuals are excellent. What cartridge do you plan to try first?

Congratulations. You must be excited. It will be very interesting to hear how it compares to the arm that Louis recommends for his own table.

I'm going to try the Atlas. I'm very excited about being able to measure the exact VTF.

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