Who is MasterBuilt?

Mike Lavigne said:

sorry, I went back and looked at where I saw the $70k, and that was an 8 meter set of Master Built Ultra interconnects. I got that confused and thought it was a speaker cable pair.

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No worries. I would love to know where you saw 8 meter Ultra interconnects for 70k. They actually retail for a little over $40k

Sure it was MasterBuilt?

This year is the first year I've heard of them. Even if they've been around, they haven't been known.

Mike Lavigne said:

sorry, I went back and looked at where I saw the $70k, and that was an 8 meter set of Master Built Ultra interconnects.
I got that confused and thought it was a speaker cable pair.

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Oh.

JackD201 said:

My point is simply that skepticism will never go away Mike and that that is simply a reality. I've had these cables since 2010, the year WBF started. I've actually had most of the iterations of the Signature line if not all. It's been in my signature the entire time. The thing is, I'm not on WBF to sell anything. Heck I don't even go to our local forum to sell anything. I'm here just to have a good time. It's not that was keeping it secret. I have gotten PMs about them over the years and did answer but that is it. As for Steve's visit, he just happened to be curious how two different systems that hit his buttons happened to be using the same make of cables that practically nobody talks about. Two very different systems at that, the only other commonalities being the TTs (but with different arms and carts), the same brand of racks and same brand of speakers. Jim not just my best friend, he's my brother but his digital is not sourced from me and neither are his electronics. We respect each other's tastes highly even if our sonic priorities differ in many ways.

When Steve asked us about MB we didn't go and say it would rock Steve's world. We'd have no way of knowing in the first place. We simply said, they are local to you so give them a try. He did and he loved them. That's really all there is to it. Would it be helpful if I named the cables that have been replaced? I don't think so. All that would do is imply that my former looms are inferior. They may have been within MY system context but there's no way to say it wouldn't be superior in someone else's. I know this sounds dispassionate but I will say that that is furthest from the truth. I am very passionate about reproduction enough to have left a wife and toddler for 5 months just to study it abroad. If anything, I've just been around the block enough times to know how little I actually know. That's why I never go around interrogating anybody. So Steve got a bit excited. We're all guilty of that. So what? I know I did when they got the product right. I just didn't gush as much online since I suppose that's not my personality. I certainly don't take that against anybody that does. I'm just happy for guys that find that next little thing that makes a positive difference be it a fuse, some acoustic adjustments, grounding, whatever. For me satisfaction is all this is about. I don't care how we get there or with what, just that it can be achieved. I also believe that that responsibility lies on each individual and that there are no prophets in audio.

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Jack,

you are totally credible with me and I've never seen you act anything but low key and classy.

my points were about what is a normal reaction to a set of events. and what I observed was just that. normal. in retrospect it would be easier for me to have not commented on this subject. I have zero reason to antagonize you or Steve. yet it seemed that initial reactions to Steve's observations were extreme in both the positive and negative directions and both were a bit overcooked. which drew me into the fray not to push away or pull anyone into the cable, but simply to encourage people to be more patient with Steve and also patient to investigate about this new cable. that was my well intentioned but maybe misguided direction.

I have zero doubt that the Master Built cables are fine sounding. how do they compare to other's at their price points? I think that has yet to be communicated. I will pay attention to more feedback data points like Steve's and see how that goes.

anyway.....I'm done on this and at some point I will listen to these cables when I get the chance.

Good Morning all,...this is gonna be a fun thread, that much is certain !!! While my intent is to heed good advice and not "Poke the Bear", I have the feeling I may be about to be less than successful.

That stated,...here goes;

- kudos the to the OP for putting it out there and asking a question that IMHO we should ask of all manufacturers regardless of price point

- note to the OP: check out this link http://www.masterbuiltaudio.com given all that's been written though, these guys may very well have employment contracts that prohibit from having outside interests, even if strictly non-competing so maybe we can all be happy with what's found on the site as we'll not be getting names for the engineers in question for probably a good reason (for their personal situation)....

- I have no doubt that MB cables are apparently among those that sound great given the bits of feedback and personal testimonies I have read by some here and elsewhere

- there is enough smoke and mirrors and qualified specs, no specs at all, no traceability of true origin, hyperbole, etc...inflated prices, etc...in high-end audio (yes, even the brands I like, save 1 or 2) that
frankly, we do deserve to know more about things we are asked to shell out not-inconsequential sums of money to be able to enjoy

"it's all signal to noise.

modestly priced products get a pass as expectations are allowed to build over time. feedback gets added to other feedback, and data points accumulate. credibility gets established and prices increase with upscale models......there is a baseline of comparative feedback. there is a solid 'signal' to support the level of noise the product produces. the dots line up.

and that is for electronics. now switch to cables which get double or triple the inherent skepticism anyway.

you cannot blame the skepticism about Master Built on the web or forum politics, it's about the suddenness of the degree of hype; without any normal process of familiarization with the product line.....combined with the mystery of who builds it. "

- Absolutely agree with Mike here...particularly with regards to the comment regarding suddenness of the degree of hype coupled with mystery of origin..., the key word being mystery (for me)

- "Von Schweikert does not make cables. VSA owns the name MasterBuilt only. The cables are sub-contracted from engineers in the aerospace industry and we purchase these cables from these engineers."

With respect Leif, I'd like to suggest there is a bit of excess plausible deniability/separation built in that raises eyebrows, particularly at these price points. Subcontracting to have items built for a
brand one owns and profits via markup is not a unique concept, or one to distance oneself from to any degree. There is ample positive detail found at http://www.masterbuiltaudio.com so no need
for any emphasized degree of separation, VSA should be proud of your find!. Not your fault and I am NOT!!! jabbing VSA I promise you; the skepticism comes from all the b.s. we've all
seen in this industry....

- All that stated, I'm getting the feeling after comments and kudos from the awards URL on the site, Steve's and others positive comments, I definitely want to hear these as well at some point!

- I will say for the record however the audio industry as a whole needs to do a sanity check on prices, $35K and above single pairs of cables, $200K, $300K and above speakers,.....SERIOUSLY????
All manufacturers need to put the "price crack pipe" down and remember they are asking housing prices (paid in cash) for things we all KNOW don't cost this much to build. Sure these things should
be expensive, but every new SOTA product that comes out seems to have an even higher price than the one before it. This comment I assure you, is not brand-dependent !!!

Thanks for reading this in the spirit is truly written in. Hopefull, the Bear will be alright <LOL>!

Leif S said:

Hi Peter,

As I have mentioned before.......Von Schweikert does not make cables. VSA owns the name MasterBuilt only. The cables are sub-contracted from engineers in the aerospace industry and we purchase these cables from these engineers.

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These cables were Von Schweikert cables back in 2011. Now they are not?

VSA cables were borne out of eight years of research in areas of metallurgy, electric field effects, and dielectric materials by Delphi Aerospace in collaboration with Albert Von Schweikert.

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Stereotimes review of VS cables.

http://www.stereotimes.com/cable083011.shtml


Even stars Jack in this one http://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=93029.0

Mike Lavigne said:

Jack,

you are totally credible with me and I've never seen you act anything but low key and classy.

my points were about what is a normal reaction to a set of events. and what I observed was just that. normal. in retrospect it would be easier for me to have not commented on this subject. I have zero reason to antagonize you or Steve. yet it seemed that initial reactions to Steve's observations were extreme in both the positive and negative directions and both were a bit overcooked. which drew me into the fray not to push away or pull anyone into the cable, but simply to encourage people to be more patient with Steve and also patient to investigate about this new cable. that was my well intentioned but maybe misguided direction.

I have zero doubt that the Master Built cables are fine sounding. how do they compare to other's at their price points? I think that has yet to be communicated. I will pay attention to more feedback data points like Steve's and see how that goes.

anyway.....I'm done on this and at some point I will listen to these cables when I get the chance.

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I think we are saying the same thing Mike. Just differently. The way I see it we are far more in agreement than the other way around. Yes I too think that reactions were extremely polarized. Maybe we should devise some sort of index showing the correlation relationship between eureka moments and skepticism just for fun. LOL. I can't forget that one time I was so happy and excited about getting my new turntable and a storm cloud blew in over its box! I think that one was classic! Glad we're good my friend.

XV-1 said:

These cables were Von Schweikert cables back in 2011. Now they are not?



Stereotimes review of VS cables.

http://www.stereotimes.com/cable083011.shtml


Even stars Jack in this one http://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=93029.0

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Yessir. They were originally branded as VSA but the brand was too associated with the loudspeakers. I still have some with Von Schweikert printed. Some are the same as the current MB, the very first ones are not.

What does even stars mean? It rolls off the tongue very well. If it's a good thing can I borrow it? Wow I was looking at the dates. Time sure goes by real fast!

zephyr24069 said:

(...) I will say for the record however the audio industry as a whole needs to do a sanity check on prices, $35K and above single pairs of cables, $200K, $300K and above speakers,.....SERIOUSLY????
All manufacturers need to put the "price crack pipe" down and remember they are asking housing prices (paid in cash) for things we all KNOW don't cost this much to build. Sure these things should
be expensive, but every new SOTA product that comes out seems to have an even higher price than the one before it. This comment I assure you, is not brand-dependent !!! (...)

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I will agree that some equipment is overpriced, but until someone manufactures a 100k speaker that IMHO is better than my preferred 200k speaker, that I consider the best speaker I have listened to according to my preferences - surely I have not listened to all of them- I will only regret I can not afford it and applause its manufacturer for spending his time and risking his money developing it.

SOTA products are mainly expensive due the law of diminishing returns, the limited numbers of production and the expenses associated to selling and maintaining such items. It is part of the game!

As long as there as people who can and want to pay, manufacturers will develop for that target price. I only hope that market rules work in general and that higher price products result in better sounding products.

IMHO high-end debates should help people separating the wheat from the chaff, not use the probability of being chaff to scare consumers.

microstrip said:

I will agree that some equipment is overpriced, but until someone manufactures a 100k speaker that IMHO is better than my preferred 200k speaker, that I consider the best speaker I have listened to according to my preferences - surely I have not listened to all of them- I will only regret I can not afford it and applause its manufacturer for spending his time and risking his money developing it.

SOTA products are mainly expensive due the law of diminishing returns, the limited numbers of production and the expenses associated to selling and maintaining such items. It is part of the game!

As long as there as people who can and want to pay, manufacturers will develop for that target price. I only hope that market rules work in general and that higher price products result in better sounding products.

IMHO high-end debates should help people separating the wheat from the chaff, not use the probability of being chaff to scare consumers.

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The apogee full range and western electrics are mega times superior to me than any 100k, 200k, or 500k speaker I have heard. No competition on tone, dynamics, soundstage, realism, etc etc.

10 and 15k dacs are better than 50 and 100k ones. No expert on all of analog, but there are definitely giant killers as compared to modern over priced stuff. Anything seen too much at HiFi shows, marketed, loads of formal reviews, etc etc has a marketing function that needs to be paid for by over pricing the component

Tbf price of the grands adjusted for inflation is 350k. At least price was proportional to quality in those days.

bonzo75 said:

The apogee full range and western electrics are mega times superior to me than any 100k, 200k, or 500k speaker I have heard. No competition on tone, dynamics, soundstage, realism, etc etc.

10 and 15k dacs are better than 50 and 100k ones. No expert on all of analog, but there are definitely giant killers as compared to modern over priced stuff. Anything seen too much at HiFi shows, marketed, loads of formal reviews, etc etc has a marketing function that needs to be paid for by over pricing the component

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You are a lucky audiophile and I respect your preference and opinion, surely very different from mine, and enthusiasm. I also shared the same opinion until I unfortunately tasted more than once the more expensive in optimum controlled conditions delivering exceptionally results. BTW, I also listened to the same expensive equipment sounding fair or poor in other systems and places.

BTW, I am not listing brands or models, as this is mainly a MasterBuilt thread.

Yes but you haven't heard the others, which under non optional conditions of free cables and cheap electronics are much better

bonzo75 said:

Yes but you haven't heard the others, which under non optional conditions of free cables and cheap electronics are much better

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Not the same you had, but tens in similar conditions, showing the same or even more enthusiastic claims. And, reasoning from what I read and learned from many people, mostly in WBF but also elsewhere, I see no reason to believe some particular unobtainium miracles will attract my preference.

microstrip said:

Not the same you had, but tens in similar conditions, showing the same or even more enthusiastic claims. And, reasoning from what I read and learned from many people, mostly in WBF but also elsewhere, I see no reason to believe some particular unobtainium miracles will attract my preference.

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Actually, there are very few here who have heard WEs and restored apogees, and they wouldn't listen to anything else. There are many who have heard the others. You are now extrapolating experiences. Sorry but other speakers are easily available for listens both private and at shows just because they are better marketed. It takes a lot of leg work to find the "unobtaniums". Those who do it will easily get a better deal, less price, much better Sonics

Ked buy one or the other already and live in bliss man.

JackD201 said:

Ked buy one or the other already and live in bliss man.

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Will do - financial decision differs from sonic decisions and has room considerations built in, nothing to do with whatsbest, which has nothing to do with price, was my point. It is easy to beat price with legwork

microstrip said:

I will agree that some equipment is overpriced, but until someone manufactures a 100k speaker that IMHO is better than my preferred 200k speaker, that I consider the best speaker I have listened to according to my preferences - surely I have not listened to all of them- I will only regret I can not afford it and applause its manufacturer for spending his time and risking his money developing it.

SOTA products are mainly expensive due the law of diminishing returns, the limited numbers of production and the expenses associated to selling and maintaining such items. It is part of the game!

As long as there as people who can and want to pay, manufacturers will develop for that target price. I only hope that market rules work in general and that higher price products result in better sounding products.

IMHO high-end debates should help people separating the wheat from the chaff, not use the probability of being chaff to scare consumers.

Click to expand...

Good points, thank you for your feedback. If my post offended anyone, you have my apologies as attack and/or offend (except the high prices themselves which
I have a philosophical difference with and always will) was not my intent.

zephyr24069 said:

Good points, thank you for your feedback. If my post offended anyone, you have my apologies as attack and/or offend (except the high prices themselves which
I have a philosophical difference with and always will) was not my intent.

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No offense at all - I was just trying being cold blooded. I try to keep philosophical aspects out of this hobby - I easily accept that what I consider a reasonable price can be offensive for many others.

In this hobby we are also paying a price for the pleasure of having an individual system, tailored to fulfill our unknown but always growing expectations. Most of the time when I bring new equipment in my room I am not sure of what will be exactly the improvements - only listening to recording after recording during a few days I find them. And I really enjoy it!