Dark sounding gear

[mep]

Ok, so now I'm being told that my Krell KSA-250 is "dark" to somewhat "dark" sounding and I'm trying to contemplate the meaning of that. To me, if someone says something sounds “dark” I assume that to mean that the high frequencies are lacking. Listening to the Krell now since October, I never really thought that.

I wonder when an amp has outstanding bass compared to so many others and from 20 Hz to 80 Hz you are hearing a foundation that some amps lack if that skews the balance such that you think you are hearing less highs in proportion to the bass. And thus comes the “dark” tag.

I do know that when I was using my “hold me over” electronics that consisted of the Yamaha C2a preamp and a pair of the much-maligned Phase Linear 400 Series 2 amps, there was definitely more “air” coming off of cymbals. However, the PL amps don’t have the bottom end that the Krell KSA-250 does although their bass is no slouch. The PL amps also sound very fast, although I’m sure none of us could describe what that really means or how it is possible and have consensus on the meaning. And maybe I was just mesmerized by the speed of the LEDs.

I still love what I’m hearing though. Pure Agave has owned lots of Krell gear and he thinks it sounds like back of the hall. I don’t hear that, but then I don’t listen to much classical music either.

 

[flez007]

I have had some dark-sounding amps, the Gryphon Anthileon as the most dark of all, and miss it like hell!!!...to me, a dark sounding amp is a one that has a melancolic, velveted, rather slowish presentation that favours small ensambles, trios, acoustic and small choral music - the opposite would be an ultra fast, shinning, light in the bass and crispy amp that favours symphonic, some Pop and complicated/saturated material.

 

[Peter]

I'm thinking of other amps that over the years have been called dark and in those cases they're generally highly regarded pieces. Forsell for one and very recently, Robert Harley's favorite BAlabo (which he or Valin compared to the Forsell). Dark and beautiful.

There are so many things that can influence the sound of an amplifier - or at least the way we might perceive it to sound. Not least of which is the room and it's contents and/or the rest of the system. I'm sure that if it came to it, you could tune some of that "darkness" out of it.

Without belaboring it, I think your observations are bang on and more importantly, if you're happy with it, that's ultimately all that matters.

 

[JackD201]

I'm with Peter 100%.

I don't know if I or if anybody for that matter, can declare any decent amp dark categorically. My favorite examples are 300B SETs. They may sound dark with the majority of loudspeakers but hooked up to 105dB horns they can be pretty darned neutral. Perhaps Krells are the same way. They may not be truly dark on top, as in details are actually lost, but with so much wallop down below, the perceived balance is skewed downwards as you say Mark.

 

[MylesBAstor]

I'm with Peter 100%.

I don't know if I or if anybody for that matter, can declare any decent amp dark categorically. My favorite examples are 300B SETs. They may sound dark with the majority of loudspeakers but hooked up to 105dB horns they can be pretty darned neutral. Perhaps Krells are the same way. They may not be truly dark on top, as in details are actually lost, but with so much wallop down below, the perceived balance is skewed downwards.

Somehow, I'd never categorize Krell as dark; if you want to give an example, for me that would be Rowland. And yes, I was actually surprised just how DARK the BAlabo sounded. Kinda like mud to me.

 

[treitz3]

Is dark to some clinical to others or am I misrepresenting? Both of them are a far cry from musical to me. Accurate, yes but to a point. Is that "Dark"

 

[JackD201]

Somehow, I'd never categorize Krell as dark; if you want to give an example, for me that would be Rowland. And yes, I was actually surprised just how DARK the BAlabo sounded. Kinda like mud to me.

Me neither. As far as Rowland goes the Ice 201s and 501s go against the JRDG house sound IMO. I prefer their linear amps.

 

[Steve Williams]

Jack

how would you compare ML vs Krell

 

[RogerD]

Kinda like mud to me.

If so there's no hope for that amp. I doubt the Krell is dark, if it excels in everything else,my experience is something else could be a problem. I say could be and it would too complicated or easy to say what would bring the amp in to balance.

 

[MylesBAstor]

Me neither. As far as Rowland goes the Ice 201s and 501s go against the JRDG house sound IMO. I prefer their linear amps.

Thanks Jack, I was speaking pre-Ice age

Another example is some of the older cj amps; they were a little on the dark side--say esp. compared to ARC.

 

[puroagave]

i didnt use the word dark. the ksa-250 was extended in top but not bright. i have an adversion to bright. of the speakers i used with krell, they were either dark on their own (celestion SL600si, spendor s100) or i'd pad the tweeters (Maggie IIIA, Apogee duetta). I havent owned a krell since about '95 when the big sell off began. i have heard their recent stuff and it sounds much different to me than the early stuff. same for classe. I did own a pair of Rowland model 3 monos, fet input bipolar outputs - marry the best or both as jeff would say. as soon as i compared them to a borrowed pair of VTL compact 100 monos, out went the rowlands! ...i was a sick child then.

 

[JackD201]

Jack

how would you compare ML vs Krell

Which generations Steve? ML was pretty dark with the 200 series, at least the 23.5 I owned, not quite as dark with the 300s, all over the place between models with the 400s, the 432 was dark while the 431 wasn't. The Krells I've heard have been pretty consistent up to the FPBs. I haven't had the chance to listen to EVOs.

Dark to me means certain notes I've heard with other amps in the same system go AWOL. I haven't heard or not heard AWOL notes with either ML or Krells from the late 90's onwards, just differing balance which I again qualify as being highly system dependent.

In the most general sense, when it came to controlling low bass decays, I'd give the nod to Krell when comparing amps from both with the same wattage.

 

[MylesBAstor]

Which generations Steve? ML was pretty dark with the 200 series, at least the 23.5 I owned, not quite as dark with the 300s, all over the place between models with the 400s, the 432 was dark while the 431 wasn't. The Krells I've heard have been pretty consistent up to the FPBs. I haven't had the chance to listen to EVOs.

Dark to me means certain notes I've heard with other amps in the same system go AWOL. I haven't heard or not heard AWOL notes with either ML or Krells from the late 90's onwards, just differing balance which I again qualify as being highly system dependent.

You're right Jack about ML. Forgot about them. Had the 332 (?) for a while and it was antithesis of the Krell amps. But the ML was eminently listenable and sounded good on stats.

 

[JackD201]

I had the 332 as well. I regretted selling it to get the 431. The 431 couldn't handle impedance drops as well as the 332. I was using Maggies at the time.

 

[garylkoh]

I wouldn't stress about some calling your Krells "dark". I thought that the KSA-250 would be the perfect match to your BP7000SC's which might be a bit bright with the 1" aluminum dome tweeter. I thought that you have a very well balanced system. What's important is that you love what you are hearing, and you evidently spend a lot more money and time on music than gear. That, is audio winning in my book.

 

[Mike Lavigne]

yesterday a friend brought over a solid state phono stage to compare to my dartzeel. at first it was 'dark' sounding in direct comparison to the very open and 'sunlit' character of the dart. the bottom octaves were a touch 'heavy' and thick sounding, and the top end was lacking air and openness. i had the dart set at 47k loading.....and suggested that we try that with the 'other' phono stage.....which had been set at 150 oms loading. we were using my new Ortofon Anna cartridge.

at 47k ohms the 'other' phono now had the same tonal pallette as the dart. in some other ways it did not quite reach the dart level but it was very good.

i owned Transparent Opus MM2 speaker cables for the last 10 years. at one point i owned 2 sets for my VR9SE speakers. the Opus MM2 is designed for speakers which have had prominent tweeters.....and so has a slightly dark character. i auditioned the Evolution Acoustics 'double-run' speaker cables and found that it openned up the sound in a more balanced way. so i sold my Opus last fall. the Opus MM2 are fantastic speaker cables for sure; and there is a sexyness in the bass that was adictive. but they are slightly 'dark' in character. i've now got the 'triple run' Evolution Acoustics speaker cable in-bound.

i'd get into amps that IMHO are 'dark' sounding yet still wonderful to listen to. but i think that some might take that as a criticism and i'm not going there.

'dark' is not bad, but it is 'dark'.

 

[Robert]

That someone would charactize a piece of equipment with a particular sound as "dark", by definition, that sound is unnatural and colored.

Some reviewers when discussing solid state equipment, confuse 'tube-like' with 'dark'. Slow, hazy, and 2-dimensional is not tube-like.

Bright, dark, fast bass, slam, speed... These are audiophile sound terms, not musical terms.

 

[bblue]

Isn't the KSA-250 a rather special animal? I've never heard that particular model (which always seems to get raves) but every other Krell I've listened to sounded pretty bright and harsh. Not under controlled conditions, but in direct comparison to the likes of ML and a couple of others. To those who like that really bright type of sound, an ML or Krell KSA-250 would probably sound dark. But I'd suggest they're a whole lot more accurate.

The Pass Labs X250.5 is my main amp, which I find exceedingly detailed and revealing, but neither bright or dark. My backup is a Rowland Model 5 which I've had for some 25 years. It is also pretty detailed but with a different character. Compared to the Pass, highs sound rolled off slightly, and bass is not as extended and slightly boomy around 40-60hz (perception, it measures flat). Perhaps somewhat dark, but still a nice listen, just not as much to hear. Sound stage not as convincing. No idea how either of these would compare to the KSA-250, but I'd expect the Krell to easily better the Rowland, and probably be very close to the Pass if not bettering it in some ways.

--Bill

 

[JackD201]

I haven't heard the X250.5 but I did hear the XA -200.5 recently with speakers I know very well. I really liked them.

 

[mep]

Honestly, I really wouldn’t know how to label my Krell gear. If I had to use only one word to describe the sound, that word would be beautiful. I do think the KSA-250 has a foundation like few other amps. And by that I mean how solid the bass reproduction is from 20 Hz to 80 Hz. The bottom two octaves are oh so hard to get right in a stereo system, and if you can’t do it with the KSA-250, you need to look elsewhere in your system to find the problem. The Krell projects a sense of power and ease that makes you feel like it is always coasting and therefore you are never taxing it.

Last night I was listening to a CD that Steve made for me which is a compilation of Swedish artists. There is a rendition of St. James Infirmary by Baba Blues which is just outstanding. Man oh man, when the saxophone enters into the mix, all of the power, glory, and tonal colors of a sax are there right in front of you. Later I listened to a Sonny Rollins tape and the illusion of having a sax player in my listening room knocking me out of my chair was basically the same.

I think it takes lots of power and/or high efficiency speakers to come close to do justice to wind instruments playing back at realistic levels. When you hear wind instruments in person and up close, the power they project is unreal. It’s hard to believe that one guy blowing into a wind instrument could be so loud, but it is. The Krell gear is capable of making the instruments sound live. If this is the sound of *dark,* I guess I like dark.