What is "Sound Stage?"

never had a Soundlab unfortunately but true went the CLS way and Magnepan ... My point isn't that we can't perceive something akin to height but rather that it a spurious phenomenon that is not usually part of a recording. We truly fabricate it in a way that can be very consistent.. This in opposition to the differences that we no longer perceive when knowledge is removed (sorry cheap shot :( )

I admit that I would like to hear the Consquence , interesting speaker.. I am very found of Dynaudio and do think the Evidence (Master and Temptation) are great speakers fully competitive with Speakers with more buzz behind them (Wilson, Magico, etc) they are unfortunately rarely mentioned in discussions of superlative speakers.
 
Might we suspect that height variances in playback are caused by:

1. Phase/arrival effects to the microphone during recording. This would include direct arrival, and bounces from the boundaries of the recording space (ceilings and floor too) that all combine to produce an illusion of height. Since the microphone is only a few inches long, there must be some way that this combined information is being preserved.

2. height placements of the drivers in your speakers

3. boundary effects in the playback location

Are there any other "objective" factors you can think of?

Lee
 
1. Microphones don't hear any more than amps are emotional. You answered your own question when you mentioned the frequency deviations in various angles of their polar patterns. People have frequency deviations when objects are not equidistant from both ears. STop thinking in Mono Tim unless you've got only one ear and it's on your forehead.
Ha! Quite the comic.

So Jack, please explain how microphones are NOT mono? One microphone is a recorder of ONE POINT. Mono. There is no consideration of height or width -- all sound arrives at the microphone at one point, and that is the mics perspective. Polar patterns have absolutely nothing to do with it.

Two microphones spaced apart are two mono recording sources that record what is presented to them at their location. There is no sense of direction. It's all summed at each microphones point placement.

When those two points are played back to speakers, and assuming the mics are horizontal to each other, the L & R channels reproduce exactly what each mic heard at its single reference point, respectively. The sum and difference of signals received in that space, when presented on two channels, gives the spatial characteristics we call a sound stage. Its point of reference can be only the two mono points received by the mics, one recording channel each. The sum and differences of the waveforms in time presented at each mic can only be significant to the plane they are in relative to each other.

That means that the only thing that can be preserved in two mics placed horizontally, is the horizontal space between the mics. Nothing vertical, since all information from any direction is summed by each mic individually to mono. Do you get that?

If the mics were spaced vertically, but your speakers were horizontal like normal, your 'soundstage' L to R would be equivalent to the vertical information received by the mics (top to bottom) and would sound pretty odd because there would be no real lateral information from the mics. Of course, if your speakers were placed as the mics were, above one another, then there would be real height information, but nothing horizontal.

If you can tell me how a mono point source receiver such as a microphone can record all positions around it uniquely into one channel, and then be presented with another mono point source next to it horizontally, and magically produce vertical (and presumably 360 degree) positional detail, I'd certainly love to hear it. Show me in science and math, not anecdotal accounts.

And in the studio, there is no mixing or modifying convention for vertical height of a horizontal pair of microphones on two channels. You can play with phase and stretching the distance between the microphones (by subtracting mathematically the L-R signal from the L+R signal), or reducing the distance by summing the L & R channels, but that's it. You can play with Doppler effects, comb filters and fine time delays to produce some unusual effects between the speakers but they have no bearing to reality, just as an effect.

Oh, I received my Chesky test record and evaluated the LEDR test. I DO hear movement vertically above the speaker in that particular test. As the image rises I also hear considerable out of phase 'pressure' between channels and between LF and HF transducers. Looking at spectrum and phase analysis of the sound they are using to produce that movement, it's a combination of balance between channels and balance between HF and LF drivers and some sharp notch filtering and a certain amount of time shifting one channel from the other going on to produce that effect. It is limited to the particular type of 'grating' sound they used to produce it, and those operations create the effect of synthesized vertical movement. But, with out of phase audio content as a side effect of it.

So my speakers and system are perfectly capable of producing the LEDR effect, yet there is absolutely no height information other than distance between drivers when playing well recorded music (or even not well recorded music).

I don't doubt that some folks have heard the height artifacts in music, only that however it was perceived, it had nothing to do with the original recording and instrument/mic placement.

If someone could volunteer some particular recorded tracks where this effect appears to be repeatable, (preferably in jazz recordings) I'd like to see what happens on playback here.

--Bill
 
Might we suspect that height variances in playback are caused by:

1. Phase/arrival effects to the microphone during recording. This would include direct arrival, and bounces from the boundaries of the recording space (ceilings and floor too) that all combine to produce an illusion of height. Since the microphone is only a few inches long, there must be some way that this combined information is being preserved.
...
How? The mic is a single element point (or if multi-element they are combined to a single signal), output as a single electrical signal which is recorded on only one channel! It's as flat dimensionally as a pancake.

--Bill
 
where does Ray Kimber's Isomike fit into this scheme
 
To answer your question of why? I couldn't even begin to tell you why and quite honestly, I could care less. I just know what I hear. I can stop the music, start it back up and you know what? The images are in the same exact location every time. The only time this changes is if I move out of the sweet spot, then all bets are off. [You are sitting in the sweet spot, right?] Some albums do the height better than others, admitted, but it most assuredly is there and not just on one or two albums either. No doubt about that. If you do not hear this, I feel for you and your listening enjoyment, as this is a wonderful aspect of the reproduction.


Tim doesn’t have much of a sweet spot since he listens to cans or he has to sit down at his computer desk 3’ away from his speakers that sit on his computer desk. People need to keep in mind Tim’s stereo system and his listening environment and juxtapose that against the statements he makes when he tells us what we can and can’t hear because of what he can and can’t hear.

If your speakers nosedive at 60 Hz and you have no real bass, it doesn’t mean the rest of us can’t hear bass. If you sit at a desk listening to a pair of speakers that sit on top of your desk and you can’t hear any height information, it doesn’t mean that people who have much larger speakers that are loading into a room can’t hear any height information. If I owned a Yugo that was down on one cylinder, I wouldn’t presume I knew what it was like to drive a Ferrari and want to argue about the Ferrari’s performance limitations. It just wouldn’t make sense because really, I would have no idea what I was talking about.
 
How? The mic is a single element point (or if multi-element they are combined to a single signal), output as a single electrical signal which is recorded on only one channel! It's as flat dimensionally as a pancake.

--Bill

Bill,

Suppose you have a single mic recording a person speaking moving away, approaching the back wall. Can you tell me if when listening you can get a perception he is moving away, as the his voice balance is changing as the reflected to direct sound is changing while the level is becoming lower - something very different from what you get just fading the level.
 
Tim doesn’t have much of a sweet spot since he listens to cans or he has to sit down at his computer desk 3’ away from his speakers that sit on his computer desk. People need to keep in mind Tim’s stereo system and his listening environment and juxtapose that against the statements he makes when he tells us what we can and can’t hear because of what he can and can’t hear.

If your speakers nosedive at 60 Hz and you have no real bass, it doesn’t mean the rest of us can’t hear bass. If you sit at a desk listening to a pair of speakers that sit on top of your desk and you can’t hear any height information, it doesn’t mean that people who have much larger speakers that are loading into a room can’t hear any height information. If I owned a Yugo that was down on one cylinder, I wouldn’t presume I knew what it was like to drive a Ferrari and want to argue about the Ferrari’s performance limitations. It just wouldn’t make sense because really, I would have no idea what I was talking about.

Mark

you know better than this. Taking cheap shots at the poster rather than the post serves no purpose. You and I are friends Mark but I won't allow any further cheap shots. You get my drift
 
Jack I was saying the same for Track 2 of Into The Labyrinth where in my system the sound is heard well above my left speaker and extending all the way down the top of my left wall which is 12 feet high. In fact Jack I am almost positive I played it for you and Jim when you were at my house

Steve, I was thinking exactly at what Tim just said in his below quote here.

So maybe I would hear it. Maybe it is one of those rare audiophile recordings in which the engineers decided to deliberately manipulate phase and eq to create the illusion of height on those trumpets. Maybe they even created a reasonable facsimile with the rest of the instruments, though I doubt it. That is probably your perceptions, filling in the blanks. But these manipulations do not exist in most recordings; it's not what most of these believers are hearing, most of the time.

Tim

Phase can be manipulated in the horizontal plane, so in the vertical plane as well,
and even full surround envelopment. Right?

So, Height, is in the recordings (manipulated phase), and also from the loudspeakers themselves.

Can Height be pure? ...In the recordings without manipulation, but simply from mic techniques?
And then the loudspeakers simply reproduce these true recordings?

Is there Height in Classical concert recordings made in Halls with the best mic technics?
 
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bblue said:
Oh, I received my Chesky test record and evaluated the LEDR test. I DO hear movement vertically above the speaker in that particular test. As the image rises I also hear considerable out of phase 'pressure' between channels and between LF and HF transducers. Looking at spectrum and phase analysis of the sound they are using to produce that movement, it's a combination of balance between channels and balance between HF and LF drivers and some sharp notch filtering and a certain amount of time shifting one channel from the other going on to produce that effect. It is limited to the particular type of 'grating' sound they used to produce it, and those operations create the effect of synthesized vertical movement. But, with out of phase audio content as a side effect of it.
Hello, Bill. Thank you for caring enough to actually try this and not just discount the entire discussion or other people's point of view/observations based solely upon what you already know or have heard. To me, that's impressive. Thanks again. You had mentioned in the above quote, the "pressure" between channels and between LF and HF transducers. Yeah, I noticed a lot of it as well. Makes the image characteristics and sound change for the worse but as you mentioned, the image nonetheless does move up.

bblue said:
So my speakers and system are perfectly capable of producing the LEDR effect, yet there is absolutely no height information other than distance between drivers when playing well recorded music (or even not well recorded music).
OK.

bblue said:
I don't doubt that some folks have heard the height artifacts in music, only that however it was perceived, it had nothing to do with the original recording and instrument/mic placement.
Now think about what you just said and go back and read above where I replied "OK". Don't the two contradict each other? Nothing else changed in your rig with the exception of the recording [the LEDR test], yet you say it has nothing to do with the original recording. It was the recording that produced the height, no? What else in your rig/room could have produced it if the recording was the only thing that changed?

RBFC said:
Might we suspect that height variances in playback are caused by:

1. Phase/arrival effects to the microphone during recording. This would include direct arrival, and bounces from the boundaries of the recording space (ceilings and floor too) that all combine to produce an illusion of height. Since the microphone is only a few inches long, there must be some way that this combined information is being preserved.

2. height placements of the drivers in your speakers

3. boundary effects in the playback location
Would you agree to any of these?

bblue said:
If someone could volunteer some particular recorded tracks where this effect appears to be repeatable, (preferably in jazz recordings) I'd like to see what happens on playback here.
I'll see what I can dig up for you.
 
Phase can be manipulated in the horizontal plane, so in the vertical plane as well, and even full surround envelopment. Right?

So, Height, is in the recordings (manipulated phase), and also from the loudspeakers themselves.

Can Height be pure? ...In the recordings without manipulation, but simply from mic techniques?
And then the loudspeakers simply reproduce these true recordings?

Is there Height in Classical concert recordings made in Halls with the best mic technics?
All of the above is possible, but only in multi-channel (more than 2) reproduction. And only if, in the multi-mic positioning, height is an element which is recorded. It is not so for conventional 2 track stereo.

--Bill
 
so where does Ray Kimber's Isomike technique fit into the discussion of a single mike and soundstage
 
All of the above is possible, but only in multi-channel (more than 2) reproduction. And only if, in the multi-mic positioning, height is an element which is recorded. It is not so for conventional 2 track stereo.

--Bill

Bill, are you 100% certain about this?
 
How? The mic is a single element point (or if multi-element they are combined to a single signal), output as a single electrical signal which is recorded on only one channel! It's as flat dimensionally as a pancake.

--Bill

I posed these points because I simply don't know. Aren't there multiple arrivals at the mike from a single sound source? Direct, reflections from all boundaries, etc.? Could those be interpreted upon playback to represent height? I just dont know, and am hoping that by posing more questions we'll avoid the typical squabbling.

Lee
 
 
I just watched the full video Steve, thanks. :b

Now, if you are a professional music recording engineer, you will employ mic techniques to improve the realistic musical events (performances), or to recreate, in the recordings, what is truly happening, plus adding those additional clues that you consider essential to the full performance experience.
... There are several things in here (various creative mic techniques from smart recording engineers; think MapleShade Studios, Chesky Studios, ECM Studios, DMP Studios, etc.), but I won't go there, just yet.

And if you have a soundstage with the drummer above the rest of the band, say by about 6 feet or so, and you want to have those cymbals very high on the recording, you can, if you want to.

Now, you just need a quality pair of stereo loudspeakers for reproducing that recording.

Am I right or not?
 
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I bought several CD's and SACD's at CES last month recorded with Isomike technique and they are darn good with great examples of soundstage height
 
IsoMike was developed as a 4.0 recording technology, if I'm not mistaken. The microphones in front of the "ears" are for the front channels, and the mikes in back produce the surround channels. By isolating ("ISO") the rear channel material from the fronts by placing a baffle between them, they create a different surround field in final playback.

Lee
 
I bought several CD's and SACD's at CES last month recorded with Isomike technique and they are darn good with great examples of soundstage height
Steve, if you don't mind, would you be so kind as to list just a few of them....perhaps a gem or two, please?
 

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