"If you don't have a $200k [speaker]..."

[bonzo75]

Interesting text from Sujay that he is noticing differences of cartridges more with the Devore than with the Rockport avior, other electronics etc still the same. He is also enjoying vinyl more.

Moral of the story, the simpler your system gets the more differences you will notice, not only in gear but also in recordings. Complex crossovers and associated circuitry to run them cost a lot in signal loss.

Crossoverless AER pnoe shows maximum differences IME

 

[Audire]

What's a better system ?
$200K speakers + $50K electronics/cables
or $100K speakers +$150K electronics /cables

Everything matters. But you don‘t need 200k of speakers to have a great sounding system.

 

[morricab]

Interesting text from Sujay that he is noticing differences of cartridges more with the Devore than with the Rockport avior, other electronics etc still the same. He is also enjoying vinyl more.

Moral of the story, the simpler your system gets the more differences you will notice, not only in gear but also in recordings. Complex crossovers and associated circuitry to run them cost a lot in signal loss.

Crossoverless AER pnoe shows maximum differences IME

You should give Horning Eufrodite Ellipse PM65 another shot as it is a crossoverless mid and crossoverless bass and just a single cap on the tweeter. All tiny differences are easily being heard.

 

[Robh3606]

What's a better system ?
$200K speakers + $50K electronics/cables
or $100K speakers +$150K electronics /cables

You really think you need to spend 1/4 of a million dollars?? I am a cheap date give me an I pod decent in ears and a sunny day at the beach. The whole idea of assigning a price tag for enjoyment is silly and misguided.

Rob

 

[Elliot G.]

What's a better system ?
$200K speakers + $50K electronics/cables
or $100K speakers +$150K electronics /cables

The numbers won’t tell the story or truly anything. I do believe a system needs balance and is always only as good as its weakest part.
I also believe that really big speakers take a lot more work/effort to get them right and have a much higher expectation and sometimes failure of those expectations when executed poorly.

 

[pjwd]

I am only focusing on the claims...I don't actually care how they design their speakers.

Your going to be a busy chap if you critique all speaker designers claims
If you play in this sandpit it is always interesting to try and understand the choices designers make and try and figure out the reason .. so at the very least you can firmly reject it !
Endless fun

Phil

 

[Ron Resnick]

the simpler your system gets the more differences you will notice, not only in gear but also in recordings. Complex crossovers and associated circuitry to run them cost a lot in signal loss.

I think there's a lot of truth in this.

 

[Al M.]

The numbers won’t tell the story or truly anything. I do believe a system needs balance and is always only as good as its weakest part.
I also believe that really big speakers take a lot more work/effort to get them right and have a much higher expectation and sometimes failure of those expectations when executed poorly.

All that. And really big speakers need a suitable room as well -- not too small.

 

[Audiophile666]

Interesting text from Sujay that he is noticing differences of cartridges more with the Devore than with the Rockport avior, other electronics etc still the same. He is also enjoying vinyl more.

Moral of the story, the simpler your system gets the more differences you will notice, not only in gear but also in recordings. Complex crossovers and associated circuitry to run them cost a lot in signal loss.

Crossoverless AER pnoe shows maximum differences IME

It's not necessarily about simplicity or complexity ,it depends if you're system is transparent and revealing enough or not.

 

[Elliot G.]

It's not necessarily about simplicity or complexity ,it depends if you're system is transparent and revealing enough or not.

It's not necessarily about simplicity or complexity ,it depends if you're system is transparent and revealing enough or not.

I think there's a lot of truth in this.

Im having trouble buying this, A unique situation that may or may not be correct does not mean that something "simple" is better than something else.
If this was the case why would most of the members here be buying larger, more complex and "better gear"

As I and others have stated larger , more complex systems require more effort, more work, more expertise and more time.
If I wanted only to hear subtle differences in a record I
might use something very foward sounding that shows all the info possible but is long term not listenable. Different toolsfor different jobs.
Studio monitors are designed for this, IMO this year at Munich the CH room was tuned for this to help show the differences in the phono stages and EQ options. Easy to hear perhaps, long term enjoyable and "musical" maybe not so much.

 

[microstrip]

In a subjective hobby there is no metric by which to judge objectively "better."

In fact there are metrics for subjective affairs - it is how research is conducted in perceptual sciences.
However the universe of WBF members is too small and biased to carry any valid judgment.

If you put together systems in each of those categories I can tell you which one I likely will like better.

Well, I admire you. Most probably I would not be able to formulate an opinion or choice for me just on an audio forum description of equipment, unless it includes some evident mismatches.

EDIT - in my post valid means something that can be extrapolated to a much larger external community.

 

[Audiophile666]

In fact there are metrics for subjective affairs - it is how research is conducted in perceptual sciences.
However the universe of WBF members is too small and biased to carry any valid judgment.



Well, I admire you. Most probably I would not be able to formulate an opinion or choice for me just on an audio forum description of equipment, unless it includes some evident mismatches.

ASR is the parallel universe

 

[Audire]

ASR is the parallel universe

Parallel to Audio “7734” ( turned upside down) …

 

[Audio_Karma]

New Dali EpiKore 11

 

[abeidrov]

Altec 817 can be made with a first order series crossover at 500 hz, two way. But then the two driver is matched at 8ohm and 105ish db sensitivity to the woofers to keep consistency, unlike Wilson with multiple out of sync drivers.

If WA speakers are so bad, how come people like Marty, who is an avid classical music lover and often goes to concerts, do not hear this out of sync, dead, hifi sound you keep referring to? Something does not add up here.

 

[bonzo75]

If WA speakers are so bad, how come people like Marty, who is an avid classical music lover and often goes to concerts, do not hear this out of sync, dead, hifi sound you keep referring to? Something does not add up here.

you don’t have to go to only to classical music to listen to out of sync. You have to have good classical records, and also find alternatives which are relatively in sync. Marty has listened to two horns, I was with him for one of them, and I didn’t like that one either.

Thing is, what are the alternatives. I hear the Wilson issues with 95 percent of the speakers. Wilson is just the most popular of those and the out of sync is the worst.

In cones, as I said I would go Stenheim, Avalon. You also have to get good records and audition using them to stop chasing speaker height and fake bass.

see if you can audition audionec evo 2.

btw, Brad and others attend shows as well. They are mostly horns. But like I said, horns have to be auditioned and you have to go way out to do so. Finding and auditioning Wilson is very easy

 

[abeidrov]

you don’t have to go to only to classical music to listen to out of sync. You have to have good classical records, and also find alternatives which are relatively in sync. Marty has listened to two horns, I was with him for one of them, and I didn’t like that one either.

Thing is, what are the alternatives. I hear the Wilson issues with 95 percent of the speakers. Wilson is just the most popular of those.

In cones, as I said I would go Stenheim, Avalon. You also have to get good records and audition using them to stop chasing speaker height and fake bass.

see if you can audition audionec evo 2

I respect your opinion as my experience is only a fraction of yours, but there are other people here with as much experience as yours with serious vinyl gear and record collections, who do not hear these issues.

 

[bonzo75]

I respect your opinion as my experience is only a fraction of yours, but there are other people here with as much experience as yours with serious vinyl gear and record collections, who do not hear these issues.

No please point out those with experience in horns who own Wilsons. Then point out those with use original vinyl. In fact there are two people on this forum who actually can spot originals if they see one from a reissue. Larry (astrotoy) and general. So your generalising statements do not help. There are some reviewers who do but they have minimal exposure to horns, plus have to go by commercial speakers

Either way, the speaker is poor. Whether you want to go out of your way to audition other speakers and learn about vinyl is up to you, searching opinions of people like me or the other parties will only help you in statistical calculations

 

[abeidrov]

No please point out those with experience in horns who own Wilsons. Then point out those with use original vinyl. In fact there are two people on this forum who actually can spot originals if they see one from a reissue. Larry (astrotoy) and general. So your generalising statements do not help. There are some reviewers who do but they have minimal exposure to horns, plus have to go by commercial speakers

Either way, the speaker is poor. Whether you want to go out of your way to audition other speakers and learn about vinyl is up to you, searching opinions of people like me or the other parties will only help you in statistical calculations

These are ridiculous statements. Even I can hear differences between various vinyl pressings. And I’ve talked to several very experienced guys, who do not like horns and prefer box speakers. There are many variables here and it takes as much effort to properly set up a horn based system, as with any other speaker.

 

[bonzo75]

These are ridiculous statements. Even I can hear differences between various vinyl pressings. And I’ve talked to several very experienced guys, who do not like horns and prefer box speakers. There are many variables here and it takes as much effort to properly set up a horn based system, as with any other speaker.

i think you are mistaking what I am saying. Hearing differences between vinyl pressings is the easy thing. But how do you pick up good vinyl? If I show you 10 pressings of the same decca performance, do you know what to look for? How will you pick the one up that’s the best sounding, short of buying all ten? And do you pick up the best LPs and performances?