Non Oversampling DACs versus High Rez Hype

[MylesBAstor]

You have touched somthing here .... I have heard many audiophiles complain about the sound of some violin recording as or bright ... The violin is a bright .. often strident instrument when heard live ... Brass at time have that painful "bite"> The components that do reproduce these as they are heard in real life, are often deemed "sterile", "clinical" and my favorite "lacking in emotion"... Many highly regarded components soften those edges to the point that the sound the sound of those instruments is unrecognizable . Yet some audiophiles start attributing all kind of qualities to this kind of unfaithful reproduction .. I will spare you the epithets but romantic comes to mind ...

Often I wonder if the High End is about High Fidelity?

Yes but there is a difference between "high string sound" of the violin section and bright/distorted.

 

[Steve Williams]

This is limited, of course, because I haven't heard what you've heard and I don't know what you really mean by "steely quality" or "bite," but I know strings and brass up front and personally and they often do have a steely quality and a painful bite, and what you're hearing could very easily be about taste. Many audiophiles don't want to hear the most intrusive elements of live sound in their reproduction; they judge the reproduction as harsh. Sometimes it's the instruments themselves, as heard by the microphones, that are harsh.

Tim

As I said, it's all a matter of taste IMHO

 

[Steve Williams]

My mantra has always been "am I hearing something better or merely something different."

 

[MylesBAstor]

My mantra has always been "am I hearing something better or merely something different."

Agreed -- or is it something more consonant with your preferences eg. dynamics, tonality, imaging, etc!

 

[c1ferrari]

Yes, indeed...

Audio Note too.

We've listened for many years to RBCD via an NOS Audio Note 4.1X Balanced DAC and either a Forsell or Esoteric transport and find the experience very satisfying.

If I were to adopt an additional digital delivery system, it would be DSD

 

[Phelonious Ponk]

Maybe harsh was just a bad choice of words, Frank, but at band practice the other night, at one point the new drummer was working his ride cymbal a bit too much, and it was...let's call it intrusive. It was the kind of sound many an audiophile has seemed to describe in negative terms. But I guarantee you, it was more real than a million dollar playback system. It was right there, flowing off of that ride cymbal to my ears.

I often read people describing what is harsh or "distorted" or analytical or just too bright, and it sounds like they're describing exactly what I've heard in rehearsal rooms and on stage a thousand times. I hear them describe what's good, particularly peaks in the highs and at the higher end of mid range, and it sounds like they've distanced themselves a bit from the full impact.

Maybe it's just a language issue.

Tim

 

[fas42]

I often read people describing what is harsh or "distorted" or analytical or just too bright, and it sounds like they're describing exactly what I've heard in rehearsal rooms and on stage a thousand times. I hear them describe what's good, particularly peaks in the highs and at the higher end of mid range, and it sounds like they've distanced themselves a bit from the full impact.

Maybe it's just a language issue.

Tim

I would agree with that, Tim, in part it is a language issue, in part what one is familiar and comfortable with. An extremely intense, high impact, real sound doesn't worry me, but if it's reproduced incorrectly all bets are off! My grandson has a beginner's drum kit, the crash cymbals are right at the bottom rung of quality; but standing a foot away when he was belting them, the sheer volume, and harmonics still were a very powerful experience, gave me that buzz that sound junkies live for.

Probably the highest decibel experience was standing about 20 feet away from an enormous hanging tree of Chinese crackers going off for their New Year celebrations. Something for Basspig's system to emulate, what was most notable was that it kept on going and going, and going; it seemed like 5 minutes worth! At the end I could see people's mouths moving, but not a single word was understood for quite some time ...

Not saying that any normal system should try to do that, but demonstrated the ear's amazing ability to handle extreme sound, provided you then give that part of your body a good rest. And that extreme sound was a good sound, it made you feel alive, really alive ...

Frank

 

[flez007]

I think this is correct....sometimes. So if you prefer the sound of analog to the sound of digital, hi res isn't going to fundamentally change that preference for you. An NOS dac with a tube output section will, however, bring digital much closer to your preference.

Tim

+1

I own a modified Havana that just does this, good enough for my "digital pretentions"

 

[MylesBAstor]

We've listened for many years to RBCD via an NOS Audio Note 4.1X Balanced DAC and either a Forsell or Esoteric transport and find the experience very satisfying.

If I were to adopt an additional digital delivery system, it would be DSD

Years ago I listened to and reviewed the AN DAC 3 for TAS. It was one of the few DACs of that era that I could listen to. Don't know if it was the NOS or not, but it was definitely listenable. I had wanted to review the 4 after it came out but the piece never materialized

 

[LL21]

Having lived now with my (second hand) Zanden DAC for 5 years or so...and having heard many digital SOTA players, i have now decided that [finally] the latest generation of digital products are definitively cleaner, clearer, far more resolving...it is no longer close when you compare a DCS Scarlatti for example. earlier generations might have seemed more detailed, but in fact might actually have just been more forward, a bit more strident after many hours of listening. But not this latest generation.

That said, given a choice, i am someone who would take less detail for superior tonality, ease, the ability somehow for my ears to listen to music...rather than sounds, decay, etc. And even relative to the mighty DCS SCarlatti, Wadia 7 (non-upgraded), krell 505, Emm...to my ears i have not yet been drawn away to consider another DAC. The DCS Scarlatti is stunning, and in the right system, i could easily understand why many would go for it. But to my ears, i still felt like i was listening to exceptional sound...whereas with the Zanden, unless i make a conscious effort to listen to sound...i inevitably end up listening to the music.

i have no idea why...it just does happen. And i think somehow other comments in this post and elsewhere suggest to me that i may not be the only one.

As hi-res starts to mature, i can imagine trading the Zanden in someday...but not in the foreseeable future. If anything, i continue to search for a reasonably priced Zanden transport (second hand) where i can do a partial trade/cash and just enjoy my music (with no thought for now about hi res). Particularly given the vast numbers of inexpensively priced CDs and Hybrid SACDs...not to mention loads and loads of new Remasters being done everyday which can be fantastic.

The only digital front-end that i would consider would be Stahl-Tek Opus (i have only heard non-Opus)...and at its enormous price...i am nowhere near considering it. I am happy to live with my 5-yr old second hand Zanden and consider myself extremely blessed to be able to listen to it every day.

 

[Phelonious Ponk]

But to my ears, i still felt like i was listening to exceptional sound...whereas with the Zanden, unless i make a conscious effort to listen to sound...i inevitably end up listening to the music.

I think this is a pretty profound statement. And maybe we all just have different points at which this happens. Personally, I almost never find myself listening to the sound, regardless of how detailed or resolving the system or the recording may be. I can hear it, but I really have to concentrate to stay with it, regardless of the system. Balance, imaging, the gap between a warm, euphonic tonality and strong revelation of detail - the big stuff - is pretty easy, but ask me to listen for the difference between a 320kbps file and losselss and I'll very quickly find myself listening to the music, having totally lost the plot. In that situation, I personally require rapid switching. Or really boring music. Frankly, I'm happy to be that way. Deliberately trained to hear artifacts at the noise floor, where they could easily be lost in the enjoyment of the art? That almost sounds like a form of self-mutilation to me.

With all of that said, I have no idea where, in that continuum, the difference between a Zanden and a Scarlatti falls. But I'm pretty sure if I compared them, I'd hear the difference, but not for long.

Tim

 

[LL21]

Hi Tim,

The ultimate test for me...is just leaving the music on, going back to work and seeing how long it takes me to flip a track mid-song, or switch CDs. I usually set up both sources to my preamp and just flip the sources on my remote several times in a row so I truly have no idea which source i am listening to.)...and then i go back to work and see what happens. With all the auditioned sources i have used to compare to my Zanden...i have lasted anywhere from a few minutes to in one case about 2 hours...before i find a mild irritation, impatience or fatigue causes me to want to flip tracks or flip albums. Once i do that more than 2x, i check to see which source...so far, it has always been the audition piece.

With the Zanden, i can let it run 12-15 hours and never tire. In fact, i often find i CANNOT switch tracks, because it just seems to break the music, and thus, i just go back to work and enjoy my music at the same time. That is the final (totally non-scientific) test i use...and this is what has led me to realize i just like my Zanden.

And regardless of pings, dings, decay, reverb, soundstage, etc...i am personally (like you i think) in this for the music. And for me, the Zanden just gets that part right to my ears.

 

[Phelonious Ponk]

Hi Tim,

The ultimate test for me...is just leaving the music on, going back to work and seeing how long it takes me to flip a track mid-song, or switch CDs. I usually set up both sources to my preamp and just flip the sources on my remote several times in a row so I truly have no idea which source i am listening to.)...and then i go back to work and see what happens. With all the auditioned sources i have used to compare to my Zanden...i have lasted anywhere from a few minutes to in one case about 2 hours...before i find a mild irritation, impatience or fatigue causes me to want to flip tracks or flip albums. Once i do that more than 2x, i check to see which source...so far, it has always been the audition piece.

With the Zanden, i can let it run 12-15 hours and never tire. In fact, i often find i CANNOT switch tracks, because it just seems to break the music, and thus, i just go back to work and enjoy my music at the same time. That is the final (totally non-scientific) test i use...and this is what has led me to realize i just like my Zanden.

And regardless of pings, dings, decay, reverb, soundstage, etc...i am personally (like you i think) in this for the music. And for me, the Zanden just gets that part right to my ears.

It doesn't get any better than settled in deep, listening to music, with no desire to change the "sound." If you've got that, you've got the only thing that matters. Science be damned.

Tim

 

[LL21]

Yes, totally agree. I am very, very curious someday to hear the accompanying Zanden transport with my DAC. I have heard from probably 12 people who either own or have seriously auditioned the combination (connected via proprietary configuration of i2s interface). Every single one of them (and each of the reviewers) has agreedit is special and very likely more of what i enjoy about just the DAC. Someday, someday... Until then, just listening to my music...

 

[LL21]

I will have the full Ypsilon digital front end in my system next week and will report.

Look forward to reading about your impressions! I have not heard the Ypsilon digital, only the Ypsilon amplification.

 

[microstrip]

(...) With all of that said, I have no idea where, in that continuum, the difference between a Zanden and a Scarlatti falls. But I'm pretty sure if I compared them, I'd hear the difference, but not for long.

Tim

Tim,
If you compare the Zandem and the Scarlatti in the same system you are not comparing them ...

I do not have direct experience with the Scarlatti, but with the Edgar/ Purcell. the DSC previous generation. The DCS could generate the air and spaciousness of a recording without warmth but unless the system around it was properly tuned it would sound sterile and not involving, exaggerating detail and bordering edginess. But with an appropriate system I could easily live with it ...

IMHO, high end is system driven, not component driven.Many audiophiles go in a destructive never ending process because they do not understand it. You have to dig in the systems used to fully understand the encrypted descriptions supplied - specially in forums where members do not have the time to write four page reports about their findings and quickly summarize their opinion between two recordings .

 

[LL21]

Hi Tim,

The ultimate test for me...is just leaving the music on, going back to work and seeing how long it takes me to flip a track mid-song, or switch CDs...With all the auditioned sources i have used to compare to my Zanden...i have lasted anywhere from a few minutes to in one case about 2 hours...before i find a mild irritation, impatience or fatigue causes me to want to flip tracks or flip albums. Once i do that more than 2x, i check to see which source...so far, it has always been the audition piece.

With the Zanden, i can let it run 12-15 hours and never tire.

Here's a good example...my Amperex 6922 tubes have started getting noisy...too early...1,000 hours. I switched to the Mullard 6922s which i have always found stiff, harsh on my zanden...but which in my CJ seem to have a much less noticeable harshness. I spent a lot on the Amperexes...and i was hoping to avoid going to the spare Amperex set...so i used the cheaper Mullards and REALLY wanted them to work since they're much cheaper. I listened and for about 10 minutes, they were so close, i figured leave it. And i really wanted them to stay in...and went back to work. I was happy/hopeful. Two hours later, i had switched 2 CDs and recognized that familiar 'irritation'...and dammit...i have put in the spare set of Amperexes. Back to bliss.

I really, really want to keep the Mullards in and save some money...but the '2 hour' test failed, and i have taken them back out again. And again on 10 minutes'...the differences are there but super-slight. oh well...time to call Brent Jessee again...

 

[MylesBAstor]

I do not have direct experience with the Scarlatti, but with the Edgar/ Purcell. the DSC previous generation. The DCS could generate the air and spaciousness of a recording without warmth but unless the system around it was properly tuned it would sound sterile and not involving, exaggerating detail and bordering edginess. But with an appropriate system I could easily live with it ...

That was exactly my experience. Sterile and uninvolving esp. compared to say the Altis DAC/Transport that was my reference.

 

[LL21]

I will say, this thread And BFlowers observations have reinforced my instinct to wait a bit before going whole hog into hi-res. If anything, it reinforces my desire to focus on sticking with trying to find a well-priced second-hand transport and just enjoying my music (and cheap cd's and remasters). And wait until both hi-res has matured as a tech, and until music becomes regularly and widely available on hi-res.

And i also will say, having auditioned both the older DCS Elgar full stack and the Scarlatti full stack, i can see where both Microstrip and Myles are coming from. I have incredible admiration for DCS and both products (particularly Scarlatti)...but neither has convinced me to trade which i suppose says a lot (and btw, i had the opportunity to trade various equipment for the Scarlatti second-hand and pay a nominal amount of cash...so it was not a relative-to-price decision, but rather an absolute one for me. i kept the Zanden.)

 

[fas42]

With the Zanden, i can let it run 12-15 hours and never tire. In fact, i often find i CANNOT switch tracks, because it just seems to break the music, and thus, i just go back to work and enjoy my music at the same time. That is the final (totally non-scientific) test i use...and this is what has led me to realize i just like my Zanden.

This behaviour by audiophiles always amazes me, the need to jump tracks, only listen to the "good" tracks, change to a "better" recording. I never, ever do this; I put on an album and listen from the beginning to the end, and "enjoy the music", as people here keep berating me to do!! If it's not sounding "right" then I know that the system has a problem, a real problem, not that the recording only has a few "good bits".

Way back when I first got "good" sound I found that it was quite disturbing to just press the Stop button if I had to; I started the habit of sliding the volume down to zero to gracefully disconnect from the replay, which I do to this day.

Frank