The pecking order

[bblue]

Yes. I have assembled a Eros Bottlehead Tape head tube preamplifier kit: I am currently considering improving the standard A80 boards with better quality electrolytic capacitors and some other components.

http://www.bottlehead.com/store.php?crn=223&rn=440&action=show_detail

OK, double factor of bias expectation - the product name and being DIY.

Indeed! I looked at that kit, but really didn't like the output level and source impedance. That's one of things they left out (a beefy output stage) to separate it from the expensive version. Bah.

I'm not (at all) a tube person and would like to find a good quality SS external tape head amp. Another possible option might be to take a phono preamp and change the curves for tape, but that sounds like a bit of work to me. I'd rather buy something with the work already done.

--Bill

 

[bblue]

Hi Bill
I did modification of my PR99 just changed all the coupling caps in repro amp also made the out put directly by pass the out put amp and all the switches and volume control , it sound much better than the stock ( pictures in this forum too) but I only use my A810 and A80 now, maybe in future change the head to 4 track for those pre recorded 7.5 tapes repro use, it will be quite good enough for them
tony ma

Did you just replace with the same values that were there? No additional circuitry? There's a lot of room for improvement by bypassing/decoupling the rails of IC's in there since the power supply is so far away in copper-distance. Actually adding a local regulator on the board would probably go a long way.

--Bill

 

[bblue]

Can you recommend a two-channel hardware spectrum analyzer?
I have access to a Tek 2467B and AP P1DD at the moment.

Thanks

I can't, unfortunately. I use some of the tools in my DAW for that. It needs to be of the type where the frequencies are vertical and timeline is horizontal, not a 1/x octave or bar type. I have an really old Tek spectrum analyzer (circa 1980) but have never tried it on audio. If it even goes down that low, it might be an interesting experiment.

--Bill

 

[rockitman]

There is indeed something wonderful when you turn on R2R and it pressurizes your room like no other audio format. I agree with mep and MikeL in spite of those distortions etc to which Tim and Tom allude

Pressurized and I totally agree. Now that I have R2R in the house it is crystal clear what my pecking order is...Just wish I had more access to studio sourced material...

R2R -> Vinyl -> Digital

edit...I have been doing comparo's with my TT and the R2R. I only have a few good tapes that I also have in vinyl. The first comparo I have made is with the Patricia Barber Cafe Blue tape and the LP version that is currently in print. The vinyl is almost as good sounding on my system, but doesn't quite Pressurize (as Steve says) the room like the R2R version. The one big advantage vinyl has is variety (for those outside of the studio world). I dream of the day I could get tape dubs of some of my favs from the 60's and 70's pop and rock. I just ordered a mix of 6 tape project tapes and have my King/Cello tape pre currently being made. I thought I was done after I heard the superiority in listening experience of vinyl versus digital, but now with R2R in the mix, the game has changed. Next up for vinyl versus R2R is Count Basie "88 Basie Street".

 

[rockitman]

In that regard then, it is fair to say that if you don't consume music in the other formats, you cannot have a basis in this regard. I know that applied to me until I got a R2R. As I shared, the music that I hear from that format is sublime. Prior to that, I would have told you that could not be the case given the anemic specs relative to digital. Indeed, I almost didn't get the deck after seeing such dismal specs. But somehow, the specs vanish when I listen to these tracks.

Well said Amir. For me is was an evolution of disregarding specs and trusting my ears...that's what I needed to do to ween myself from digtal and explore analog.

 

[rockitman]

Not to put a dampener on this thread, BUT I was at my local record show on Saturday....about a 150 thousand records available for purchase ( maybe more)......when was the last time that you went to your local RtoR show...? How many titles available?

While this point may not be relevant to the quality of the presentation of the media in our systems, I personally have little to no interest in RtoR simply due to the lack of available media. Personally, I would much prefer to maximize my vinyl system and leave it at that.....just IMHO.

Getting into R2R is cheap compared to what it costs to get the highest level of playback in vinyl. True, the availability of media (access) is far more limited than that of vinyl, but for less than the cost of a single $5,000 cart, you can have two (for dubbing) modded R2R decks with their repro heads wired out to a tape pre and achieve a glorious sounding alternative to vinyl. Plus R2R heads are a community. Tape trading is always a good possiblity to get more material.

 

[rockitman]

Another point to ponder is the analog generational losses in copying the 15 ips 1/4" half-tracks; since the master should be copied rarely, that means distributed copies will come from a 1st gen dub at best, making them 2nd gen at best.

which really is not a problem...even third dub or more. You may hear a slightly higher noise floor in between tracks as the generations progress. A non issue (w/in reason generation wise), imo unless your looking to hear the silence digital deliver's in between tracks with no music.

 

[tony ky ma]

Did you just replace with the same values that were there? No additional circuitry? There's a lot of room for improvement by bypassing/decoupling the rails of IC's in there since the power supply is so far away in copper-distance. Actually adding a local regulator on the board would probably go a long way.

--Bill

That was my first modification project of R2R, after that I did change A810 to tube out put of repro amp and later A80RC to tubes in record amp too ( I did post those in forum), that is why no more touch of PR99, my next project is put B62's amp (tube version) to Telefukun M15 machine
tony ma

 

[microstrip]

(...) Another possible option might be to take a phono preamp and change the curves for tape, but that sounds like a bit of work to me. I'd rather buy something with the work already done.

--Bill

Bill,
As you, I have also considered this option - and the IEC tape playback equalization curve is very easy to implement. I have a 30 year old Electrocompaniet phono preamplifier with MC (moving coil) facilities, including variable load and gain that would be a good candidate. .

 

[microstrip]

(...) In fact, you can tell a lot about how well your cartridge/stylus is aligned to a particular record by watching the preamp output on a spectrum analyzer capable of at least 80khz resolution. The less output there is above the bandwidth of the actual signal (which you can see on the analyzer) the closer your calibration is.

--Bill

Very interesting. Are you really meaning 80 kHz resolution or bandwidth? Most PC soundboards operated at 192kHz sampling can reach 90 kHz.

 

[garylkoh]

I'm not (at all) a tube person and would like to find a good quality SS external tape head amp. Another possible option might be to take a phono preamp and change the curves for tape, but that sounds like a bit of work to me. I'd rather buy something with the work already done.

--Bill

I just heard from Burmester yesterday that they are willing to do that on their Ph100 - their wonderful phono stage (I have one) that has two inputs. One input phono, another input tape. However, when that can be done, and how much it will cost has still not been considered yet.......

 

[rockitman]

Indeed! I looked at that kit, but really didn't like the output level and source impedance. That's one of things they left out (a beefy output stage) to separate it from the expensive version. Bah.

I'm not (at all) a tube person and would like to find a good quality SS external tape head amp. Another possible option might be to take a phono preamp and change the curves for tape, but that sounds like a bit of work to me. I'd rather buy something with the work already done.

--Bill

The King/Cello tape pre fits the SS bill. Very quiet and rock solid bass extension/control. Our own Stellavox on this site builds them to order.

 

[flez007]

The King/Cello tape pre fits the SS bill. Very quiet and rock solid bass extension/control. Our own Stellavox on this site builds them to order.

Just about to receive mine

 

[rockitman]

Just about to receive mine

I was at Charles house last week. I saw your unit. Congrats ! and congrats on getting that Nagra T sorted out.

 

[flez007]

Thanks Christian, Santa will arrive a little late this time!

 

[bblue]

Very interesting. Are you really meaning 80 kHz resolution or bandwidth? Most PC soundboards operated at 192kHz sampling can reach 90 kHz.

If you want to be able to see detail, that would have to mean resolution. I usually monitor through the DAW at 176k so my upper b/w limit (or resolution) is about 88k. Out of band junk from the stylus typically doesn't reach even 80k except in severe cases and a moving coil cartridge with no capacitive loading. Usually, you can see the bandwidth of the original audio, and then little peaks that may shoot way up in frequency on vocal sibilance, drum snare, or any other high energy impulse like close miked brass, cymbals and other percussion... before it is readily noticeable on speakers.

It's hard to know, though, when you do get it pretty dialed in, how much of the peaks you still see are a product of the lathe electronics, cutter head or even on the master tape from a final limiter freaking out, etc. Regardless of the source the stylus tries to track/trace it with varying degrees of success. When all is well, however, on the analyzer you'll see a clear audio bandpass limit and anything above that isn't really audio you want.

--Bill

 

[bblue]

Very interesting. Are you really meaning 80 kHz resolution or bandwidth? Most PC soundboards operated at 192kHz sampling can reach 90 kHz.

I just heard from Burmester yesterday that they are willing to do that on their Ph100 - their wonderful phono stage (I have one) that has two inputs. One input phono, another input tape. However, when that can be done, and how much it will cost has still not been considered yet.......

One can only imagine.

I've drooled over that unit more than once, but finally (pretty much) settled on a Pass Labs XP-15 after rejecting several others.

--Bill

 

[MylesBAstor]

Indeed! I looked at that kit, but really didn't like the output level and source impedance. That's one of things they left out (a beefy output stage) to separate it from the expensive version. Bah.

I'm not (at all) a tube person and would like to find a good quality SS external tape head amp. Another possible option might be to take a phono preamp and change the curves for tape, but that sounds like a bit of work to me.

Actually it's a lot less work than you think and that's essentially what the best external repros are nowadays.

I'd rather buy something with the work already done.

--Bill

One tape preamp worthy of auditioning is the previously mentioned Charlie King modified Cello phono stage eg. the King/Cello. Equipped with the Mundorf Au/Ag oil caps, I preferred the K/C to preferred to my BH Repro (one of these days will get around to breaking in the Dueland VSF Black caps and install them to compare to the Mundorfs).

Nick Doshi also makes another tape preamp that is a modified version of his excellent hybrid phono stage. It's a bit more expensive than Charlie's unit and does a nice job of maintaining the harmonics resolution of tubes while giving you the quietness of solid-state, something that people in the pro arena must have (BTW, the Cello has an exceedingly low noise floor esp. in combination with the Pro Nortronics heads).

 

[bblue]

The King/Cello tape pre fits the SS bill. Very quiet and rock solid bass extension/control. Our own Stellavox on this site builds them to order.

Thanks.

Do you have a URL for them?

--Bill

 

[Steve Williams]

stellavox1@aol.com