I plan to try the rip to WAV versus rip to FLAC and convert to WAV
Taiko Audio SGM Extreme : the Crème de la Crème
- Thread starter CKKeung
- Start date
Ed confirmed that the RAM disk size did not change. We should be careful about talking about changes which have not been confirmed by the Taiko team.
When I had an Innuos Zenith MK II it provided ripping of CDs with its onboard CD drive in either FLAC or .wav format. I much preferred the SQ of .wav. But that might have been down to Innuos' hardware or software implementation of FLAC.
Steve Z
Steve Z
We have not changed the size of the RAM disc. What we did find was a bug in the processing code that caused truncation of large files, and that has been fixed
We have also found that the average SQ gap between FLAC and WAV has been getting larger and more obvious as the Extreme has been getting quieter and quieter with the various updates to OS, USB Driver and music server software.
Enough said . . . .
Steve Williams
Site Founder, Site Owner, Administrator
The sound floor on the extreme with XDMS imo is virtually non existent yet Emile promises that the BPS will lower it even further. Miracles do happen.
Bit perfect in reference to the files that are being downloaded from the service provider server. What else could we be asking? Fortunately we know our CD rips are bit perfect, I hope we can expect the same in streaming.
People have short memory. During many years, CD players were rated by their error correction capability - "experts" used the Pierre Verany Digital test CD - I still own it - filled with all kind of imperfections, and the best were just the transports that managed to track better the challenging tracks - they were supposed to be more "bit exact" - at that time we said they had less bit errors. Only much later it was found that even average CD reading mechanisms had a minimal number or no errors in real playback and the famous torture tracks were omitted from review measurements, that focused on jitter and subjective aspects of sound quality.
If we can't be sure that we are getting the "proper" bits and consumers and reviewers do not have access to tools to know the situation, I would really say "Houston, we have a problem". We have still a lot to learn until we can trust in streaming.
So how does streaming sound to you in comparison to local file playback? How about "proper" bits (original sample rate) from CD vs. upsampled bits via your Upsampler? I'm not sure I buy into bit perfect as a necessary condition for superior sound quality. But that's just me. I also do not subscribe to arguments as to superior format (DSD vs. DXD as one example) since I have heard superb sound and unlistenable sound from about any sound delivery format I can name.
Steve Z
Downloaded Qobuz files still sound better in my system than streaming, but I have not gone in XDMS - one of my plans as soon as I have some continuous free time.
If we do not buy in bit perfect, we open a Pandora box. What is the allowed error rate? How does it affect sound quality? What is the point in cleaning the "0"s and "1"'s if they are wrong? What is the correcting mechanism of streaming? How can we be sure when making subjective evaluations that tomorrow we have the same number of errors caused by network quality?
Bob, I feel removing your question from a manufacturer forum would provide a fuller answer. Taiko does not as far as I'm aware support any product which handles file conversion or disc ripping.
To provide a very brief reply - conversion adds noise. This has a direct relationship with equipment and software used. Sound is directly related to composition of the file used and it's history. Every file compresses differently.
Bob, I feel removing your question from a manufacturer forum would provide a fuller answer. Taiko does not as far as I'm aware support any product which handles file conversion or disc ripping.
To provide a very brief reply - conversion adds noise. This has a direct relationship with equipment and software used. Sound is directly related to composition of the file used and it's history. Every file compresses differently.
i'm not sure i agree. lossless conversion should not put noise into the file of bits. decoding and converting in the server most certainly can.
Playing back the flac files vs the.wav files created by the Innuos via the Extreme I still have a marked preference for the .wav files.
Steve Z
And CDs or CD rips played back as-is vs. via your Upsampler?
I understand your concern about what is going on behind the curtain, however if a bit-perfect files sounds worse than a processed file do I as an end-user, that is, someone who wants to enjoy my music to fullest extent, actually care?
I'll answer my own question: No I don't. No more than I care that the best sounding file is DSD, DXD, Redbook, or something processed by my Upsampler. Your mileage may vary, and it that's OK.
Steve Z
i agree completely. on many tracks, the flac files sounds flat, 2D by comparison.
i am going to look into ripping WAV or FLAC==>WAV and see if i can hear any difference.
Sorry, you are now mixing apples with oranges. We can process the original file in any way - it is part of the sound reproduction process. I am just asking for the quality of the original file due to faults in the transmission process - this is the meaning of being "bit exact" .
For example, I had a few CD's that suffered from bit-rot - they were not bit exact and sounded miserable by that time, although they did play perfectly. Analyzing them showed an high rate of C2 errors.
Perhaps we are assigning different meanings to the term bit-perfect. I am taking it to mean file that is bit-for-bit identical to the source file from the time it enters a system to the time it is reconstituted to an analog signal in a DAC, and any modification that changes the bit values, advertent or inadvertent during this time renders it no longer bit-perfect. As such I included upsampling and format conversion.
If I understand your example, you are positing a much more restricted subset of bit-perfect as an inadvertent change to the file due to damage that has changed the sound quality of the file.
I think the issue of sound quality is more complicated that than and in fact bit-perfect-ness is only a minor constituent. In the world of data transmission that is what error correction is supposed to take care of and in your example of the damaged CD that played perfectly but sound bad, it may well be that lack of being bit-perfect is not the culprit but rather the overhead burden of error-correction caused by such extensive damage was to blame. Admittedly, this is kind of a chicken or egg dilemma. However, my sense is the list of things that damage digitally-transmitted sound quality are much more extensive -- EMI, RFI, latency, compression/decompression to name but a few -- and that minor deviations from bit-perfectness are not a major contributor.
Certainly, Emile is much more qualified than I to comment and he has much more empirical experience to do so from a position of authority.
Steve Z
Likely a dumb question, but ... if I convert my local flac files (some ripped and some purchased downloads) to wav using Dbpoweramp, should I expect the wav version to sound better?
There are no bits lost or altered. The file contents are identical. Error control is incomparable to CD and is basically fault proof. Depending on your definition of what bits are, they're not the same of course, as they will have been recreated hundreds if not thousands of times by the time they are converted to an analogue signal. The "BIT value" is represented by an analogue voltage in a high or low state, this analogue voltage is guaranteed not identical between identical bit values (at least the chance of that would be VERY low).
From the way you're looking at it, streaming is bit perfect, CD playback OR CD ripping can be, but is absolutely not guaranteed being subject to read errors. Streaming data transfer is fault proof.
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