Taiko Audio SGM Extreme : the Crème de la Crème

[microstrip]

There’s no differences in bits, it almost never happens that bits change from 1 to 0 or 0 to 1. If it does you have a hard error, you’d notice something like a click in the sound.

Are you saying that there is no error correction system, such as the interpolation, used in CD playback, in streaming?

My main concern, however, was not the errors. How can we be sure that the bit content of the flles used by the streaming companies are exactly the same as the CD content?

Are there any legal constrains in storing temporally a streamed file?

 

[Taiko Audio]

Are you saying that there is no error correction system, such as the interpolation, used in CD playback, in streaming?

My main concern, however, was not the errors. How can we be sure that the bit content of the flles used by the streaming companies are exactly the same as the CD content?

Are there any legal constrains in storing temporally a streamed file?

You can’t be sure. MQA processing is guaranteed not identical. Storing streamed files is not allowed, you are obligated to either store them somewhere inaccessible to users and/or encrypt them so they cannot be copied / played.

 

[Muni]

Hi @Muni ,

You are more then welcome. Nice to see the Zellaton Plural EVO out in the field! What is your experience with the Schnerzinger Protectors?

Hi Emile, they are great - reducing EMI and RFI etc pretty well - I don't want to listen without them...used in the room for different wave lengths and I also use them with the DAC AMP Extreme directly connected.
They can be adjusted to your likings and eliminate harsh frequences...highly recommended...

 

[dminches]

Taiko Team...

Do you think the release of XDMS is still possibly a 2021 event or do you anticipate more likely in 2022?

Just looking for something new to play with...

 

[EuroDriver]

Taiko Team...

Do you think the release of XDMS is still possibly a 2021 event or do you anticipate more likely in 2022?

Just looking for something new to play with...

We are trying to get XDMS out within this year, but during January is more likely

 

[Christiaan Punter]

Watching a couple of audio fanatics who get a kick out of each other indulge their passion was enjoyable. The part that kind of annoyed me is when Mikey was talking about the bugginess of TAS. I assume Jay knows that Emile and the Taiko Team did us a favor by not making us wait for what will undoubtedly be the awesome final product. And we got to throw in our two cents (some more like a quarter!) to provide Taiko with useful feedback. I felt Jay could have spoken to that more comprehensively. When I see what friends of mine who are into vinyl go through, TAS is a minor inconvenience. Mini-rant concluded!

He did say "It's not streamlined YET" . But you raise a good point.

 

[Christiaan Punter]

Thanks for the quick reply. Indeed, it is not likely that people had the chance to sit them shoulder to shoulder for a direct A/B.

I'm not using a Wadax Dac. Actually I am using the Wadax Atlantis Server as a pure Roon core, and a Bricasti M5 as a bridge connecting to my Metronome Kalista Dreamplay DAC via USB. I found through an M5 as a bridge, the SQ wins over a direct USB connection from the Atlantis Server. In fact this was where I started to consider an upgrade to a better one-piece solution.

Indeed, I also found that the Bricasti M5 can have that effect with some servers. But not with all of them! And although I haven't yet heard the SGM Extreme in my home system, having read so much about it, and knowing how Emile approaches this a little now, I doubt that it would be improved upon with the M5.

 

[Christiaan Punter]

As Emile says above, I had the Terminator for a short while but for the life of me I couldn’t get along with it no matter whether I upsampled in Terminator or HQPlayer. I thought the modded T+A was a more musical DAC but have now settled on the Formula XHD.

Regarding sample rate, it is, as Emile says, system dependent and it’s down to the listener to choose what’s best for their system and ears.

To put this in perspective, I used 28bit 768/708 with my Formula XHD with 32bit sounding too live and a touch strident. However, after installing a Pachanko Pure Reference SaTa cable and an upgraded SSD, and also moving to Sablon’s Bocchino terminated ICs I am now preferring 24bit, all this within HQPlayer settings of course.

So, a little ‘jiggling’ is necessary to find the optimum setting but then it’s set and forget.

I’m not sure how the Extreme is set up so will leave that for Emile to explain when he has time.

Cheers
Blue58

I realize this is an old post and you (Blue58) may not need any more advice on the topic. Just for anyone going through these pages now, I can say that the Denafrips Terminator is a superb DAC, certainly at the price, but it does lean toward the analytical, potentially clinical side. Especially when using its USB input which is highly precise, but in some systems and to some ears, I could imagine the DAC proving just a little bit too controlled in its presentation. The DAC sounds a little friendlier with its other inputs. The Aqua Formula xHD sits more or less in the same camp as the Denafrips (highly transparent and precise) but is fuller-sounding and slightly richer, and arguably indeed more "musical".

 

[Christiaan Punter]

Since you have the XHD now, would you like to hear what it can do “bit perfect”? If yes drop me a note. It might surprise you

I certainly prefer the Formula xHD when working with a native resolution in terms of bass robustness, transients, and tonality. Then again, there are those who prefer the airier and arguably more fluid presentation when feeding it upsampled material.

 

[2ndLiner]

Hi @Christiaan Punter! Admittedly, given my experience with the Taiko team and the Extreme, I can get a little touchy/defensive when I perceive misrepresentation. I will attempt to temper such in the future, ha! BTW, perhaps due to the "rock" I live under, I was not aware of HFA before you joined Taiko. Well, I am now and what a great, informative repository of audio related info!

 

[Christiaan Punter]

Hi @Christiaan Punter! Admittedly, given my experience with the Taiko team and the Extreme, I can get a little touchy/defensive when I perceive misrepresentation. I will attempt to temper such in the future, ha! BTW, perhaps due to the "rock" I live under, I was not aware of HFA before you joined Taiko. Well, I am now and what a great, informative repository of audio related info!

Not to worry 2ndLiner, no need to temper anything! My response was meant as tongue-in-cheek. I'm glad to hear that you have now found HFA and that you like what you are finding there. Should you have any questions then don't hesitate to ask them here or in the HFA comment section.

 

[2ndLiner]

@Christiaan Punter --- Your "tongue in cheek" comment was totally received in the spirit it was meant to be! Have a great Christmas and fabulous 2022!

 

[Christiaan Punter]

Thank you for asking as I would like to propose there is no "problem" in the actual data stream. Data errors almost never occur, if at all. This is however a hard to explain topic. I'm trying to share some of the discoveries we made in this thread, but it's not easy to explain, so bear with me and please keep the questions coming if anything is unclear.

For the original SGM 2015 music server our primary focus was on reducing DAC filter quality influence by providing a higher quality (up sampled) data stream. Especially DSD DAC's could greatly benefit from this method and be provided with a means to convert every source format to DSD. Of course the end result would depend on how the DAC processes higher data rates, most DAC's use different filters for different sampling rates, or they can be user selected, so you would force the DAC to use, or be able to use a different filter this way. Some of the filters and up sampling algorithms provided by HQPlayer which we use for that purpose are so processor intensive you can most definitely not run it on for example a Roon Nucleus, let alone they will run in a DAC's FPGA. A good example it the Chord Dave which is all about high quality filters and boasts a very strong FPGA array but it cannot approach the filter algorithms quality HQPlayer can provide.

Fast forward to this day and age where DAC quality, and DAC filter quality technology has advanced significantly, especially in upper echelon R2R DAC's, we find ourselves in the situation that the benefit of pre-processing the data has either decreased or is gone altogether. Most of these simply sound best being fed native "bit perfect" data rates.

Here we get to the interesting part and your question: "How can computer latency affect data streams at such low data rates?" A natural companion to this question would be: "Why use so much processing power for such low data rates?"

"Low latency" is something computer audiophiles have been hunting since the early Logitech transporter/squeezebox days. I don't think anybody ever really knew why it sounded better, it's sought after in the studio recording scene, but obviously to avoid time related sync issues and audio stream interruptions, but not sound quality afaik. There are several tools available to measure a system's latency to this purpose (referred to as DPC latency, ISR routine execution time, interrupt to process latency etc). It's generally accepted that lower latency sounds better amongst computer audiophiles though.

As I attempted to explain in my previous post on the subject, lowering latencies reduce active processing times. You can view latency as a roadblock that you cannot pass until its removed. Or shifting your transmission into a gear before you can accelerate. During a latency "wait state", a processor, memory module or system bus data path is getting ready to accept data packets. It will be active though, drawing current, transmitting its unavoidable EMI and or RFI spectrum which any electrical component will do. With lower latencies we reduce overall system current draw, EMI, RFI and processing durations. Contrary to what you would expect, you can have lower current draw variations and net overall lower EMI / RFI emissions from higher processing power solutions being minimally loaded then from low processing power solutions being higher loaded. The general view that lower power servers generate less noise then higher power servers BECAUSE they consume less current is wrong in our experience. Of course there are a lot of variables in this equation as it's easier and cheaper to design a low noise power supply for lower current draw requirements so you may very well get better results from a low power solution, especially when using the same power supply. But this is not the design goal of the Extreme.

Now if we can agree on the hypothesis that introducing any type of component into your system can alter your system sound, not restricted to the signal it puts out, it will become a lot easier to explain more differences. No matter if it's a server, a cd transport, an amplifier, a cable, a fuse, a grounding or ground modulating device. In fact why don't we extend the definition of your system to your phone charger, your imac, your WIFI router or your new refrigerator?

Great piece of info! Indeed, it's important to always remember that correlation is not necessarily causation.

 

[Muni]

Hi Emile,
Regarding TAS and the new XDMS....when I open an album in TAS each of the tracks show the album cover and underneath may be the first sillable of the title - for me it makes no sense to show each track together with the cover - it is more useful to have just one cover if at all and the titles visible.
May be you are handling this with the new XDMS already - just my two cents...
Cheers - am still patiently waiting for XDMS...though tough!

 

[Taiko Audio]

Hi Emile,
Regarding TAS and the new XDMS....when I open an album in TAS each of the tracks show the album cover and underneath may be the first sillable of the title - for me it makes no sense to show each track together with the cover - it is more useful to have just one cover if at all and the titles visible.
May be you are handling this with the new XDMS already - just my two cents...
Cheers - am still patiently waiting for XDMS...though tough!

Hi Muni,

You are now looking at Logitech Media Server, XDMS is nothing alike that. BTW, you can also use Ipeng as a remote control app. That has a different, perhaps better interface. You will still need the TAS app for starting players / switch to Roon etc.

 

[Christiaan Punter]

I have to add mine as well. I find little if any difference between streaming and playing files on the Extreme. I would be hard pressed to tell a difference in a blinded test

Alas, I have no personal experience with the Extreme just yet but here are my two cents.

Here in the Netherlands and using a cough-Grimm MU1-cough, I can often tell the difference between streaming and local playback, but surprisingly, sometimes the Qobuz streaming content does indeed sound better (more vivid), even when comparing Redbook quality. I attribute these cases to the streaming provider perhaps having direct master copies (in the case of recently released music) while I have ripped CDs. Or perhaps they have a better ripping method.

I rip on Windows 10 via dBpoweramp in 8-speed with AccurateRip and know that different ripping programs lead to different sounding rips and selected this method and speed for its balance between precision and harmonics. For instance, I found that EAC on a Linux VortexBox machine yielded arguably more accurate rips but I found these overly technical/controlled sounding. In all fairness, that was a long time ago and my preferences may now lie differently.

Anyway, in most cases where I compared Qobuz downloads to the streamed equivalent, local playback sounds freer, less restrained/encapsulated, and more expressive than streaming. In the fewer cases when streaming wins, it is in terms of bass definition and the overall expression.

I use a standard provided Cisco EPC3925 router wired with standard Cat6 cable throughout with a deliberately simple Linksys LGS108 switch for the audio system.

 

[Christiaan Punter]

Yes, but what is “bit exact” worth nowadays? How much does it tell you if we’re assuming sound quality is what we’re after?

Exactly! It says very little...

 

[Christiaan Punter]

Please read the whole thread, just not my post. We are also addressing comparisons between formats and trying to explain the reasons why, not just asking what is your preference.

Knowing about bit perfection of the source is fundamental is any comparison of formats. During more than a a decade people attributed the differences between CD players to the error correction abilities and reviews ranked tested wrongly, as they were not able to find anything else to do. We should aim at doing a better understanding nowadays.

IMHO bit perfection at some point is a minimum. I want the exact bits I pay for!

Agreed, it is a good starting point

 

[Christiaan Punter]

It just occurred to me -- a person could buy and download a file from Qobuz and compare it to the same resolution file streamed from Qobuz. That wouldn't address the problem of provenance with Tidal streaming vs. ripped files, but could be a start in the comparison of streaming vs local file playback on a level playing field.

I'll drop a line to Qobuz to ask the question if a file purchased and downloaded is identical to the same piece streamed. In the past they've been very prompt with their replies to my questions.

Steve Z

You beat me to it! I've done these comparisons, see my earlier/later response. Great suggestion to check with Qobuz. It will be good to know if the downloaded material does indeed have the same source as the streaming material!

 

[Taiko Audio]

I rip on Windows 10 via dBpoweramp in 8-speed with AccurateRip and know that different ripping programs lead to different sounding rips and selected this method and speed for its balance between precision and harmonics. For instance, I found that EAC on a Linux VortexBox machine yielded arguably more accurate rips but I found these overly technical/controlled sounding. In all fairness, that was a long time ago and my preferences may now lie differently.

I agree, interestingly this “sound signature” you noticed on ripped files applies on using Windows 10 or Linux for music playback aswell. No matter what I tried (it would just be so much easier to run Linux as the OS) , this general signature remains. I have even tried different compilers/flags to compile the kernels, must have used dozens of makefile variations, but it appears to be there to stay.