Visit to Audiophile Bill to hear his horns project

[Zero000]

Big congrats on the wonderful work, Bill
I bet the must sound absolutely awesome

Funny you call THIS a "prototype" while 99.85% of the speakers manufacturers don't even come close to this level of craftmanship with their lofty priced finished offerings

That just shows DIY is absolutely the way to go. If you can do it.

It's obviously not easy but if you f it up you can always do it again. Or start on a completely new route.

Time is a precious resource for most, though and it is a hell of a lot of effort.

Big levels of respect to Bill here.

 

[Audiophile Bill]

Won't it have to be very big in circumference as well

Yes indeed so, Ked. Especially at the fc we are talking about. That said in theory my industrial lathe and custom steady allow me to go up to 2.2 metres mouth if i were to be that mad. I have a double length bed that allows me to go to 14’ length too. Whole thing weighs 780kg. I am a danger to myself as I start to think what could be made lol.

The multi-way project I alluded to earlier has a mid bass horn with mouth of 1.1 meters. I had to recently acquire an engine hoist to get this timber on / off the lathe - I haven’t started this but the design / maths etc is done.

 

[the sound of Tao]

It’s great to be able to see this project unfold... thanks for sharing a great glimpse at what is clearly a giant effort... and congratulations Bill, it really is looking fantastic and that timber horn is a star.

Great write up Marc, really enjoyed reading about your day.

Just really exciting stuff and very much looking forward to hearing more.

 

[Audiophile Bill]

It’s great to be able to see this project unfold... thanks for sharing a great glimpse at what is clearly a giant effort... and congratulations Bill, it really is looking fantastic and that timber horn is a star.

Great write up Marc, really enjoyed reading about your day.

Just really exciting stuff and very much looking forward to hearing more.

Hi Graham,

Thank you for the kind words about the horn - the pain in producing it was quite large lol. But after a long time of many iterations it can be done very robustly now.

Yes Marc is only person to have heard this version. Ked is the only other who heard the previous bass module prototype. Looking forward to sharing more as I finalise stuff.

 

[spiritofmusic]

The sonics weren't totally what I was expecting, how the visual promise seemed at first blush.

So, the natural warmth and really palpable texture was totally in keeping with the genuine wonder of Bill's 100% solid mahogany main horn. That was as consistent with the warm visual first impression.

But the advance news that Bill was utilising 4x 15" subs per side put me in the mindset that I was going to get a sledgehammer sound. My tt designer is also DIYing a project w twin 18" subs firing into each other per side (although at 90° orientation to Bill's project), and his bass has got a real tendency to sound very different to what Bill has achieved.

I cannot imagine how challenging it was to first of all make 4x 15" on each side work, and then seamlessly integrate with a super fast and naturally warm main horn. I don't go out of my way to look for driver anomalies, and often I don't easily hear them while others seemingly easily do (I really like AG Duos and Cessaro Liszts), but Bill's horns are really marked out by a very holistic top to bottom presentation, and zero conflict between horn mids/highs and cones bass. Subtle, natural, warm,holistic. A pretty impressive checklist.

 

[Tango]

The sonics weren't totally what I was expecting, how the visual promise seemed at first blush.

So, the natural warmth and really palpable texture was totally in keeping with the genuine wonder of Bill's 100% solid mahogany main horn. That was as consistent with the warm visual first impression.

But the advance news that Bill was utilising 4x 15" subs per side put me in the mindset that I was going to get a sledgehammer sound. My tt designer is also DIYing a project w twin 18" subs firing into each other per side (although at 90° orientation to Bill's project), and his bass has got a real tendency to sound very different to what Bill has achieved.

I cannot imagine how challenging it was to first of all make 4x 15" on each side work, and then seamlessly integrate with a super fast and naturally warm main horn. I don't go out of my way to look for driver anomalies, and often I don't easily hear them while others seemingly easily do (I really like AG Duos and Cessaro Liszts), but Bill's horns are really marked out by a very holistic top to bottom presentation, and zero conflict between horn mids/highs and cones bass. Subtle, natural, warm,holistic. A pretty impressive checklist.

You mentioned natural warmth twice. BD4 and Mayer electronics never been characterized as anything warm but just transparent to source. The wood work must have made you felt cozy.

 

[spiritofmusic]

So Tang, you don't think unamplified music played live can be warm?
I certainly do. My Zus tonal density is good here too. How much Bill's wooden horns are contributing, I can't easily say. If the presentation is very different with, say an idler tt instead of belt drive, different cart, digital, beefier amps than Mayer, SS, a bigger room, then maybe a stronger inference can be drawn.

But the warmth I'm talking about at Bill is not the cloying or euphonic emphasis on lower mids/upper bass I hear from some tube amps and dacs, or some of the Koetsus I've heard.

 

[Tango]

So Tang, you don't think unamplified music played live can be warm?

I hear it warm only when they don't turn on the air conditioning in the venue.

 

[Audiophile Bill]

You mentioned natural warmth twice. BD4 and Mayer electronics never been characterized as anything warm but just transparent to source. The wood work must have made you felt cozy.

Hi Tang,

The natural warmth is partly the recordings chosen to listen to but partly the fullness of the mid bass. They are the antithesis of skeletal in presentation. They can be tuned slightly more skeletal by reducing the gain on the active bass module but to be perfectly candid, I really don’t opt for the skeletal sound. To me even a solo violin and piano duet will usually have natural tonal warmth in parts of its register. That being said, it will show you clearly recording and pressing differences. It is somewhat microscopic in tonal nuances on violins and cellos for instance. You will hear a *bad* digital DG pressing for what it is - it won’t be able to make that sound good. Depth of recordings and ambience changes a lot between LPs. You can however enjoy good reissues so it isn’t too fussy if you know what I mean. Ked picked up on this latter point.

 

[spiritofmusic]

I hear it warm only when they don't turn on the air conditioning in the venue.

Me? It'll be when the punters either side of me at a concert aren't wearing face masks.

 

[bonzo75]

You mentioned natural warmth twice. BD4 and Mayer electronics never been characterized as anything warm but just transparent to source. The wood work must have made you felt cozy.

I think natural warmth is different from colored warmth. Real music is warm. Colored warmth is where the warm feeling is the same, and usually comes from the valve, can be heard, especially with audio research or Kondo. Everything natural is naturally warm by definition, as opposed to analytically cold. Neutral is not on warm or cold axis, but the ability to reflect change of warmth and other attributes that come from change in recordings or components.

 

[sujay]

Yes indeed so, Ked. Especially at the fc we are talking about. That said in theory my industrial lathe and custom steady allow me to go up to 2.2 metres mouth if i were to be that mad. I have a double length bed that allows me to go to 14’ length too. Whole thing weighs 780kg. I am a danger to myself as I start to think what could be made lol.

The multi-way project I alluded to earlier has a mid bass horn with mouth of 1.1 meters. I had to recently acquire an engine hoist to get this timber on / off the lathe - I haven’t started this but the design / maths etc is done.

Amazing craftsmanship, Bill! Labour of love. The finish on the horn looks exemplary.

 

[morricab]

Part two

Listening impressions. Well, no two horns are the same. I've heard a small handful I really like, and more I actively dislike. So, what to expect?

Well, I've rarely if ever heard in a speaker what I heard at Bill's. An amazing balance of warmth and detail, and a really impressive tonal balance, natural timbre, and totally correctly-scaled image. Bill played a mix of classical and jazz for me, and I was impressed greatly by the warm solid tone, instruments really sounding authentic, and the most natural soundstage I've yet heard from horns.

The next thing that absolutely struck me was the ability to really keep up with the music. We played some really dynamic classical and jazz that absolutely galloped and hit crescendos, and there was zero stress or drivers hardening. Total listener relaxation as the music wound higher and higher.

Another interesting facet was the fact that 8x 15" subs did not overpower the room, which is probably on the small side for speakers with this prowess. No, bass was tidy and controlled, and only burst thru when needed. A result of Bill's careful choice of drivers and hard work at integration. No boxy colourations or subs-horn disconnect.

We played one lp of mine, and it was hugely entertaining. No doubt horns are always best with more stellar sounding material, but I was engrossed all the same.

My conclusions? Horns are so variable, and most have Achilles heels that let the side down. Bill's horns are as seamless, warm, extended, and critically, natural and holistic, as you're likely to get from horns in their configuration/footprint. Obviously examples like AG Trios or Cessaro Zetas are gonna sound bigger and maybe brasher. But in the more manageable sector that Bill's horns represent, the SQ may be unbeatable.

And critically, the package of both stellar sound and possibly most artisanal speaker on the market, certainly in all horns short of Vox Olympian, makes it a compelling package.

Bravo, Bill, bravo. And thanks for giving me the honour of being the first person to report on them.

Did you hear the previous BD Swings? How did that compare?

 

[jeff1225]

Congratulations Bill. Can you post a new total system pic? Also, does the horn have the same geometry as the Swing?

 

[spiritofmusic]

Brad, I didn't...but I believe Bill's pair were the pair I might have bought some years previously. In the end I was loathe to buy any spkrs with powered bass that doesn't have adjustability as my Zus do.

 

[bonzo75]

I don't think Marc has but I have. To start with, the BD swings are much cheaper and have BMS which are very low priced drivers. I have heard them in Marc Henry's horns and while good value for money, they are more of starter DIY drivers.

The swings can be made with AER, but I haven't heard those. The swings have a plastic coloration while Bill's are wood. The bass is a completely different solution and sounds different. This horn has much more bass and weight. Swings too can be run on Mayer 46 so that's good. I heard the swings with Vyger Indian signature and these horns with the Sindre

 

[Alrainbow]

The pnoe and axjet at Munich were not at all representative of how the pnoe sound. They were being run at 100 watts hybrid, the axjet by 50 watts of Riviera, while they should be run at under 3 watts of pure valves. Because of the pnoe at Munich I did not visit the General for a few months to check out his system because I was expecting to be disappointed, and was quite surprised by how much of a contrast it was to Munich, easily catapulting it into among the best ever.

How is it with 100 pure watts .?

 

[morricab]

I don't think Marc has but I have. To start with, the BD swings are much cheaper and have BMS which are very low priced drivers. I have heard them in Marc Henry's horns and while good value for money, they are more of starter DIY drivers.

The swings can be made with AER, but I haven't heard those. The swings have a plastic coloration while Bill's are wood. The bass is a completely different solution and sounds different. This horn has much more bass and weight. Swings too can be run on Mayer 46 so that's good. I heard the swings with Vyger Indian signature and these horns with the Sindre

The coaxial BMS drivers are not very cheap from my understanding (several hundred per piece). They are not TAD expensive but IMO the TAD seem overrated based on what I have heard from them thus far.

 

[spiritofmusic]

How is it with 100 pure watts .?

How about 100 impure Watts?

 

[Alrainbow]

35 by 32 is pretty decent

I have my Duettas in 35 by 14 these days but I don't think they'd like bigger. I have a much larger room in the main house but it's banned for anything approaching real hi-fi

Duetta i was told are best in small to medium size rooms for power and will need plenty, plenty power to do a big room ...