Taiko Audio SGM Extreme : the Crème de la Crème

[wil]

Honestly, I wasn't planning on getting this far into the Network game foolishly thinking that I would get minimal improvements playing locally stored files.

Lucky for me, Comcast has been sucking lately, charge an arm and a leg, and give 1/3 the speed of ATT fiber at 3x the cost. The original plan was to replace Comcast with ATT fiber for the entire house, but now I think I might have to keep both, and use ATT Fiber only for the Extreme/music.

The improvements I've heard are too much to give up now and I don't know how much of that is attributed to keeping all other house internet traffic off of the ATT fiber line. I will test adding the house network to the ATT fiber line to see how much it degrades the sound once the Edgerouter is setup and I use the SFP port to feed the rest of the house.

I too have Att fiber and have made some modest moves to circumnavigate the Att modem/router Gateway:

-- disabled the Gateway wifi
-- connected Home wifi router to modem via fiber and fmc's to isolate Home traffic from Audio line
-- lps to modem

I also thought I would attempt to bypass the Modem with the Edge router as you described a couple of posts above. However when I talked with a Networking professional about setting this up for me, he warned me I would without a doubt be in for some technical troubleshooting and maintenance from time to time by doing so. As I am tech/networking illiterate and value my sanity, I chose to forego that endeavor! But if you are comfortable with this, then go for it!

 

[onlychild]

I too have Att fiber and have made some modest moves to circumnavigate the Att modem/router Gateway:

-- disabled the Gateway wifi
-- connected Home wifi router to modem via fiber and fmc's to isolate Home traffic from Audio line
-- lps to modem

I also thought I would attempt to bypass the Modem with the Edge router as you described a couple of posts above. However when I talked with a Networking professional about setting this up for me, he warned me I would without a doubt be in for some technical troubleshooting and maintenance from time to time by doing so. As I am tech/networking illiterate and value my sanity, I chose to forego that endeavor! But if you are comfortable with this, then go for it!

Thanks for the advice. That does make me think twice about it. I’m definitely more of a “set it and forget it” type.

I do plan on keeping the Att modem for backup. If it gets to be too troublesome, I will just go back to the Att one. I do like having the SFP on the Edgerouter. One less FMC and LPS in the chain.

 

[howiebrou]

Last night I was able to do a quick comparison with a combination of switches, cables and power supplies on my extreme network solution with some slightly unexpected results. The chance arose as I was able to borrow a SOTM switch and a Sablon 2020 ethernet cable and got hold of a pair of Planet Tech SFPs to try Fibre.

First of the original set up consists of a Netgear router connected to a Melco Switch using a $2 ethernet cable and then another $2 ethernet cable connected to the Extreme. The Extreme is connected to my Lampizator Pacific Dac.

Change 1: Replace Melco to Extreme cable with Sablon 2020 ethernet cable (I only had one). Pretty big change. Slight increase in resolution but a better sense of flow. Layering is more evident and soundstage increased. Voices seem less artificial.

Change 2: Replace copper ethernet with Planet Tech SFP modules and Corning OS2 fibre direct to Extreme from Melco. I had been told that this combination would be higher resolution but perhaps less musical. I was pleasantly surprised. Bass has increased but there is a hint of harshness (although much less than I had feared). Resolution also increased. Definitely a contender and at very low cost.

Change 3. Swap the Melco for SOTM and use Sablon cable. The Melco is, imho, definitely better, at least for me. The SOTM, on its own is a bit dry and uninvolving. This is not a contender on its own.

Change 4. Router to SOTM with $2 ethernet. SOTM to Melco with Fibre. Melco to Extreme with Sablon. This is a great combo. Both Switches were powered by my double outlet Plixir LPS. I did not try replacing the fibre between switches with copper but this combo sounds great. The sound is dynamic, involving, no harshness and full of life.

Change 5. Router to Melco with Sablon and then Fibre to Extreme. This is the only combo post router with no crappy cables. This was also the best by a hair, better even than the double switch. Now the crappy cable might have been the limiting factor in Change 4 above, without another Sablon on hand i can only guess but this has the advantage of being a simple set up too. I like how easy fibre is to use connecting up to the Extreme. No huge wires, no lifting of gear off racks.

So that's how it is now. Router with Sablon to Melco then Fibre to Extreme. I'll have to repeat this all over again when I can get my hands on a Telegartner M12 Gold Switch but for now, it's a great combo. One bonus of only one switch was that the spare Plixir outlet fits my Router perfectly so now my Netgear is also on a LPS.

 

[nenon]

Last night I was able to do a quick comparison with a combination of switches, cables and power supplies on my extreme network solution with some slightly unexpected results. The chance arose as I was able to borrow a SOTM switch and a Sablon 2020 ethernet cable and got hold of a pair of Planet Tech SFPs to try Fibre.

First of the original set up consists of a Netgear router connected to a Melco Switch using a $2 ethernet cable and then another $2 ethernet cable connected to the Extreme. The Extreme is connected to my Lampizator Pacific Dac.

Change 1: Replace Melco to Extreme cable with Sablon 2020 ethernet cable (I only had one). Pretty big change. Slight increase in resolution but a better sense of flow. Layering is more evident and soundstage increased. Voices seem less artificial.

Change 2: Replace copper ethernet with Planet Tech SFP modules and Corning OS2 fibre direct to Extreme from Melco. I had been told that this combination would be higher resolution but perhaps less musical. I was pleasantly surprised. Bass has increased but there is a hint of harshness (although much less than I had feared). Resolution also increased. Definitely a contender and at very low cost.

Change 3. Swap the Melco for SOTM and use Sablon cable. The Melco is, imho, definitely better, at least for me. The SOTM, on its own is a bit dry and uninvolving. This is not a contender on its own.

Change 4. Router to SOTM with $2 ethernet. SOTM to Melco with Fibre. Melco to Extreme with Sablon. This is a great combo. Both Switches were powered by my double outlet Plixir LPS. I did not try replacing the fibre between switches with copper but this combo sounds great. The sound is dynamic, involving, no harshness and full of life.

Change 5. Router to Melco with Sablon and then Fibre to Extreme. This is the only combo post router with no crappy cables. This was also the best by a hair, better even than the double switch. Now the crappy cable might have been the limiting factor in Change 4 above, without another Sablon on hand i can only guess but this has the advantage of being a simple set up too. I like how easy fibre is to use connecting up to the Extreme. No huge wires, no lifting of gear off racks.

So that's how it is now. Router with Sablon to Melco then Fibre to Extreme. I'll have to repeat this all over again when I can get my hands on a Telegartner M12 Gold Switch but for now, it's a great combo. One bonus of only one switch was that the spare Plixir outlet fits my Router perfectly so now my Netgear is also on a LPS.

Mostly inline with my findings and the findings of a few others here who have tried better ethernet cables and those switches.
Time to try to replace the Netgear router with Ubiquiti EdgeRouter X SFP and get a second good Ethernet cable?

 

[howiebrou]

Mostly inline with my findings and the findings of a few others here who have tried better ethernet cables and those switches.
Time to try to replace the Netgear router with Ubiquiti EdgeRouter X SFP and get a second good Ethernet cable?

Yes, perhaps. Would you say replacing the router is a higher priority than adding another switch?

 

[austinpop]

I notice that a lot of folks here are fans of Plixir and Keces PSUs. I'm not familiar with these. Can someone who has compared these relative to Uptone, Farad, Sean Jacobs, or Paul Hynes supplies please post their experience?

 

[howiebrou]

I notice that a lot of folks here are fans of Plixir and Keces PSUs. I'm not familiar with these. Can someone who has compared these relative to Uptone, Farad, Sean Jacobs, or Paul Hynes supplies please post their experience?

Afraid I only use Plixir, which is based on Singapore, here but I’m sure others will chime in.

 

[nenon]

Yes, perhaps. Would you say replacing the router is a higher priority than adding another switch?

If you are streaming Qobuz / Tidal - I believe so, but it's system dependent and YMMV. And it's much cheaper. But let me clarify this again - adding this Ubiquiti router as a daisy chained network device would not provide any improvement. The router does not improve the sound. Its benefit is that it replaces a device that generates a lot more noise (i.e. yout Netgear router in your case). And the net result is positive.

 

[howiebrou]

If you are streaming Qobuz / Tidal - I believe so, but it's system dependent and YMMV. And it's much cheaper. But let me clarify this again - adding this Ubiquiti router as a daisy chained network device would not provide any improvement. The router does not improve the sound. Its benefit is that it replaces a device that generates a lot more noise (i.e. yout Netgear router in your case). And the net result is positive.

Unfortunately my netgear router near my hifi is coming off another router which is coming off a modem. Lots of places to introduce spurious noise me thinks.

 

[nenon]

Unfortunately my netgear router near my hifi is coming off another router which is coming off a modem. Lots of places to introduce spurious noise me thinks.

What works really well for me is to clean up the network path for the streaming signal and try to keep as little consumer devices in that path as possible. Keep it simple: modem (SB8200 in my case) --> router (EdgeRouter) --> audio network (consisting of Melco/Buffalo and etherREGEN switches with fiber connection between them). Use good power supplies and good cables for everything in your signal path. I do vibration treatment too and it helps.

Then I use the SFP on the EdgeRouter with a fiber cable going to a fiber media convertor (FMC) to connect the rest of my home network. That provides galvanic isolation (via fiber optic cable) between the router and my home network and WiFi. I found this to work really well. But my home network is fairly simple, and that may not be an option for a more complex home network with pre-run wiring.

In addition to the galvanic isolation between my home network and my audio network, I also do a VLAN isolation. That prevents some of my home network traffic (broadcast in particular) from reaching my audio network. And it also has an audible impact. A lot of that has been discussed in the networking thread that was recently started, so I'll just keep the outline and won't go into too many details.

 

[howiebrou]

What works really well for me is to clean up the network path for the streaming signal and try to keep as little consumer devices in that path as possible. Keep it simple: modem (SB8200 in my case) --> router (EdgeRouter) --> audio network (consisting of Melco/Buffalo and etherREGEN switches with fiber connection between them). Use good power supplies and good cables for everything in your signal path. I do vibration treatment too and it helps.

Then I use the SFP on the EdgeRouter with a fiber cable going to a fiber media convertor (FMC) to connect the rest of my home network. That provides galvanic isolation (via fiber optic cable) between the router and my home network and WiFi. I found this to work really well. But my home network is fairly simple, and that may not be an option for a more complex home network with pre-run wiring.

In addition to the galvanic isolation between my home network and my audio network, I also do a VLAN isolation. That prevents some of my home network traffic (broadcast in particular) from reaching my audio network. And it also has an audible impact. A lot of that has been discussed in the networking thread that was recently started, so I'll just keep the outline and won't go into too many details.

Thank you. Lots of things to sort out my end. It will be a fun journey and no doubt I will have.forgotten what it all sounded like before I started!

 

[kimurastanley]

What works really well for me is to clean up the network path for the streaming signal and try to keep as little consumer devices in that path as possible. Keep it simple: modem (SB8200 in my case) --> router (EdgeRouter) --> audio network (consisting of Melco/Buffalo and etherREGEN switches with fiber connection between them). Use good power supplies and good cables for everything in your signal path. I do vibration treatment too and it helps.

Then I use the SFP on the EdgeRouter with a fiber cable going to a fiber media convertor (FMC) to connect the rest of my home network. That provides galvanic isolation (via fiber optic cable) between the router and my home network and WiFi. I found this to work really well. But my home network is fairly simple, and that may not be an option for a more complex home network with pre-run wiring.

In addition to the galvanic isolation between my home network and my audio network, I also do a VLAN isolation. That prevents some of my home network traffic (broadcast in particular) from reaching my audio network. And it also has an audible impact. A lot of that has been discussed in the networking thread that was recently started, so I'll just keep the outline and won't go into too many details.

Can i check how do you configure VLAN?
Thanks

 

[Kris]

What works really well for me is to clean up the network path for the streaming signal and try to keep as little consumer devices in that path as possible. Keep it simple: modem (SB8200 in my case) --> router (EdgeRouter) --> audio network (consisting of Melco/Buffalo and etherREGEN switches with fiber connection between them). Use good power supplies and good cables for everything in your signal path. I do vibration treatment too and it helps.

Then I use the SFP on the EdgeRouter with a fiber cable going to a fiber media convertor (FMC) to connect the rest of my home network. That provides galvanic isolation (via fiber optic cable) between the router and my home network and WiFi. I found this to work really well. But my home network is fairly simple, and that may not be an option for a more complex home network with pre-run wiring.

In addition to the galvanic isolation between my home network and my audio network, I also do a VLAN isolation. That prevents some of my home network traffic (broadcast in particular) from reaching my audio network. And it also has an audible impact. A lot of that has been discussed in the networking thread that was recently started, so I'll just keep the outline and won't go into too many details.

Nenon is right
This all makes very positive difference.
I will just add one very important aspect.
If your modem is also router ( this is a case in most internet providers) than your Edgerouter should have the routing function off ( DHCP server disabled ) .
This wag you avoid passing everything via 2 processors and 2 routers fighting to give every device different ip address.

I turned DHCP server off and it was very big increase in SQ.

 

[Steve williams]

no doubt I will have.forgotten what it all sounded like before I started!

Those rabbit holes can get very deep Howie

 

[rgmd11]

I notice that a lot of folks here are fans of Plixir and Keces PSUs. I'm not familiar with these. Can someone who has compared these relative to Uptone, Farad, Sean Jacobs, or Paul Hynes supplies please post their experience?

I recently bought a Keces P3 and it runs my router and Ubiquiti switch and was a major improvement all round including the image on my TV which takes it's signal from the router via ISP provided box.

Though the aforementioned Sean Jacobs, Paul Hynes and Farad LPs's are I would say generally considered to be the best performing on various forums I have come across, happy with my Keces I must say, great price and the finish is of a very high quality.

 

[howiebrou]

Those rabbit holes can get very deep Howie

More an abyss than a hole!

 

[Rhapsody]

Magic can be found in the abyss.

 

[austinpop]

I recently bought a Keces P3 and it runs my router and Ubiquiti switch and was a major improvement all round including the image on my TV which takes it's signal from the router via ISP provided box.

Though the aforementioned Sean Jacobs, Paul Hynes and Farad LPs's are I would say generally considered to be the best performing on various forums I have come across, happy with my Keces I must say, great price and the finish is of a very high quality.

Given this is the "what's best" forum, and we're talking about $4000 switches and $26k servers, I expected folks would gravitate towards the best PSUs — knowing how important PSUs are across the chain. So to hear a lot of mention of Plixir and Keces makes me curious to know if they are indeed in that category of "best PSUs," as I have never heard them.

Or at least mildly curious, as I'm very happy with my SR-7 multirail DR supplies. Hopefully someone has done the comparisons.

 

[nenon]

Given this is the "what's best" forum, and we're talking about $4000 switches and $26k servers, I expected folks would gravitate towards the best PSUs — knowing how important PSUs are across the chain. So to hear a lot of mention of Plixir and Keces makes me curious to know if they are indeed in that category of "best PSUs," as I have never heard them.

Or at least mildly curious, as I'm very happy with my SR-7 multirail DR supplies. Hopefully someone has done the comparisons.

I can only comment on the Keces P8, and I would not put it up there with the best of the best. It's a very good more mass production versatile power supply that is easily obtainable at a decent cost and provides good functionality and excellent protection. It's also a very good starting option, because it makes a significant difference over most cheap SMPS. However, if you are looking at the best on the market, the Keces won't meet your requirements. It certainly is not on the same level or even close to your custom DR SR-7.

Never tried the Plixir myself. It would be nice to hear how that compares with the best.

Nenon is right
This all makes very positive difference.
I will just add one very important aspect.
If your modem is also router ( this is a case in most internet providers) than your Edgerouter should have the routing function off ( DHCP server disabled ) .
This wag you avoid passing everything via 2 processors and 2 routers fighting to give every device different ip address.

I turned DHCP server off and it was very big increase in SQ.

Generally speaking, I would not use the EdgeRouter if I cannot disable the router functionality on my cable modem. My strategy has been to replace the modem in that case with something that's only a modem. But I can also see some possible use cases for the EdgeRouter as you mentioned.

Can i check how do you configure VLAN?
Thanks

There are 3 things you need to do:
1. Configure an IP address on the port towards your audio network (eth1 in my case). I use 192.168.1.1/24 for my audio network (statically configured on eth1) and 192.168.2.1/24 for the rest of my network (that is the IP address that the setup wizard configured on switch0 initially).
2. Configure DHCP Server for the 192.168.1.0/24 (.0 is not a typo) network. That's done under Services --> DHCP Server. Make sure you specify gateway and DNS.
3. Configure DNS for the new network. Add eth1 in Services --> DNS --> DNS Forwaring.
Disconnect and reconnect the network cable on your server, and it should obtain a new IP address. You may want to go back to Services --> DHCP Server and configure a static IP address mapping for your server, so that the IP address does not change. Or you may just hardcode the IPAddress, network mask, default gateway, and DNS directly on your server. No matter how you do that, it is important to know the IP of your server, because the Roon controlling device (presumably left on your home network and NOT part of the audio network) will not be able to find your Roon installation. In the Roon controlling software you will have to click on "Help" and specify the IP address manually. So, yes, this comes with a level of inconvenience.

 

[wil]

Yes, perhaps. Would you say replacing the router is a higher priority than adding another switch?

I believe Bob (Rhapsody) ended up finding that his Edge router was superfluous once he had two M12 switches in place?