State-of-the-Art Digital

[Kingrex]

(And yes, the DAC itself also provides a lot of rhythm & timing, not just the digital source.)

I'm not giving enough credit to the DAC. Yes the DAC is very important as far as PRAT. My rub is the sense that too much credit it ascribed to the DAC. I and my friend Ultrafast have spent a lot if time optimizing or digital playback. Ultrafast started a thread on Audioshark about the Digital Backbone. I'm not at his level, but if I were not utilizing the basic foundation of what he posted, I would not have near the quality digital playback I have.

For years I was a pariah on forms, partly due to my love of digital playback outperforming my vinyl. And, well hey, Im me. It took purchasing my STST Motus II TT to get to a level where the very best vinyl I have nuges out the very best digital I have. But its damb close.

As I built out the digital backbone i could clearly hear every step as a positive move. I actually ruined Ultrafast when I had him over to listen to my Linear Soultuon switch. He heard the difference and really went down the rabbit hole. His digital is fantastic now. All his LPS feeding modems, router, switches, gigafoil etc, all his stuff is on isolation stands with StillPoint and Nordost cones etc optimizing their performance. He uses exceptional cables. I have not spent the time to rack my digital on platforms, but I do have dedicated LPS to all my router, modem, switches. I do have Blue Jeans cat 6 to everything. I have basic audiophile power cables to my LPS feed from an OFC cord to a dedicated power strip with Porter Port receptacles. I have performed listenin test with audio friends and we all here the improvement when you add or subtract components.

But still, one of the single biggest component impacts to my digital is my server. I have had 3. Two of which I did a lot of software optimizing. It's stunning how much software impacts the sound. My current server was optimized by Mojo Audio about 6 months ago. WOW. HQPlayer with files off my hard drive are drop dead gorgeous. Absolutely musical. Its not the same with lesser software, lesser hardware. IMO - State of the art digital needs to be purposely optimed from start to finish. Thats my belief.

 

[spiritofmusic]

Kingrex, ditto re you needing to go all out to get yr analog to shade digital. It's a lonely place to be, the vinyl guys taking the proverbial, and digital guys cutting you off. No, in this binary universe, you're analog or digital...not much nuance allowed (unless you're king of the county like Mike w his three tts, tape, and uber digital).

 

[Kingrex]

you mean like Emile remotely doing the update while i'm at work?

that pain?

and having multi-million tracks at my fingertips?

that pain?

Mike is right. Now a day I don't fiddle with software. I have been into digital streaming for almost 7 years. I was learning and playing in the beginning. I had one of the very first windows servers built with a LPS. Remember when they were modding your Mac Mini. I was right there with it all. Now I do what the manufacrurer feels is right. If he wants to update my software, I get an email asking when is a good time and his tech dials into my server and does his work.

And what is $14k for a Innuos Statement when your talking $40k for an Aquaformula or $90k for a Select. I spent $5.5k for my Deja Vu and about the same for the Mystique V3 DAC. I have 2234 cd I burned to wav. They all sound great. I actually stream most of the time. It's not the pinnacle of performance, but it's easily good enough to captivate you on certain songs.

 

[Al M.]

you mean like Emile remotely doing the update while i'm at work?

that pain?

and having multi-million tracks at my fingertips?

that pain?

Computer audio has come a long way from its DIY days, and your paying big bucks for your digital solution of course helps.

In the beginning it used to be drama after drama. Witness the countless pages on audio forums with the latest, greatest software upgrade that allegedly solved all problems and improved your sound, then the next problem (oops), solved with the again latest and greatest upgrade, then the next problem (oops), and so on.

And of course, today's streaming is more convenient than ripping all your library to files. If it sounds as good, that seems to be a matter of current debate (not on my part, I'm just observing the arguments).

 

[Al M.]

As I built out the digital backbone i could clearly hear every step as a positive move. I actually ruined Ultrafast when I had him over to listen to my Linear Soultuon switch. He heard the difference and really went down the rabbit hole. His digital is fantastic now. All his LPS feeding modems, router, switches, gigafoil etc, all his stuff is on isolation stands with StillPoint and Nordost cones etc optimizing their performance. He uses exceptional cables. I have not spent the time to rack my digital on platforms, but I do have dedicated LPS to all my router, modem, switches. I do have Blue Jeans cat 6 to everything. I have basic audiophile power cables to my LPS feed from an OFC cord to a dedicated power strip with Porter Port receptacles. I have performed listenin test with audio friends and we all here the improvement when you add or subtract components.

Aah, also here having to perfect all modems, routers, switches, gigafoil etc.

Computer audio, no drama -- sure.

I just plugged in my transport, connected a great digital cable, and was all set.

This is not to say that those into computer audio shouldn't do it. Just don't pretend that it's so simple. And yes, streaming is great. I do mine on YouTube -- if I ever feel the itch .

 

[HughP3]

A serious question, what does Roon really add? I have the Innuos (desk testing) but decided not to use Roon. I installed IPeng on iPad and no its not as nice an inteface as Roon Or JRiver but it lets me stream Tidal and access my ripped tracks just as effectively. The Innous is already optimized for Tidal. Looks like i am not missing anything unless i need a multi room/ multi system interface like Sonos.

 

[asiufy]

If you don't "get" Roon right away, chances are you won't miss or need it at all.
IMHO, its magic is in its UI, and how it allows you to "see" not only your entire collection, but dig deep into it and find related music that you might already own, or might be available in one of the streaming services.
If you just want to go in, pick an album, hit play, and enjoy, there's not much that Roon offers above other simpler apps like iPeng. Matter of fact, Roon becomes a liability, as its SQ is clearly inferior and requires some fiddling. With Innuos, that means enabling the experimental mode, which brings Roon SQ on par with iPeng's.
I can see a world where I'd use two apps. One for simple tasks like playing an album in its entirety, and then Roon for more tasks such as discovering new artists, browsing my collection to pick an album to play next, etc.

 

[Ron Resnick]

A serious question, what does Roon really add? I have the Innuos (desk testing) but decided not to use Roon.

. . . .

Whenever I ask this very same question people tell me that Roon adds, among other things, a lot of background information about the track and the artist and easy access to similar music.

I plan on not using Roon.

 

[rblnr]

Roon is great to find out more info on the artist/album/etc. It also gives an easily accessd readout of the audio pathway, and info such as dynamic range of a track. Music discovery is another strength of the software.

I'll say it, in the bit of A/Bing I've done of expensive servers, I'm skeptical of their value re: SQ. Have by no means auditioned everything out there, and could be that my switch/routers/ethernet cables aren't up to snuff, but again, when I've A/Bd, I haven't heard much, if any difference, between them and a Mac I used for years as a server.

 

[HughP3]

Whenever I ask this very same question people tell me that Roon adds, among other things, a lot of background information about the track and the artist and easy access to similar music.

I plan on not using Roon.

Hi Ron, yeah Tidal does the same meta data thing, searches, similar song/Genre, playlist , my albums. however tidal does not have access to locally stored files like roon does and the much cheaper slimmer iPeng. Roon is nice tho. I guess I don’t need roon if I just use tidal.

 

[andromedaaudio]

Im still stuck in the old days , when audiophiles said .
A good transport sounds much better then USB audio , ... years later USB sounds much better then a transport .....then streaming is the thing and a transport wasnt even in the picture anymore for most

For now i m happy with CD s easy not to complicated put one in and push a button , but if i can find a way too hook up my levinson dac to you tube that would be great , with the meittner dac usb connnection i can.

For me its the dac that needs to be of high quality , mine runs at 44 khz with no complaints , i prefer execution of design above the latest spec

 

[rblnr]

Neither Tidal, nor iPeng, JRiver, etc are as information rich as Roon, nor do they aggregate, search and discover as well. Putting SQ aside (and perhaps too it's horizontal scrolling), it's clearly the best catalog and play software out there IMO

In terms of just efficiently accessing music and playing it, Tidal, Spotify, JRiver, Bluesound et al are more or less the same.

 

[spiritofmusic]

And are Roon users w servers at a lesser level than the Extreme, eg Innuos Zenith, detecting this drop in SQ as a result of recent Roon changes?

 

[Elliot G.]

I used JRiver before Roon and I like Roon better period. Its very easy to use, I don't have issues with it and at the end of the day once you pick whatever software its just getting used to it, learning how to use it for your own enjoyment and back to the music. I have a server with 8 TB of music and I have Tidal and Qobuz all work with Roon seamlessly. My DAC has a Roon endpoint so its an ethernet cable away and Viola!
There are some things in life and in audio I don't care to screw around with. My friend is much more in tune woth the digital world and has tried a bunch of these items and I have heard a few at his home on his system. We both agreed that Roon was the way to go.

 

[Joe Whip]

I am a Mac user and use Audrivana for playback. Roon is great if you are a metadata geek. I just pick and album I want to listen to on my iPad and go. Audrivana has excellent sound quality and easy to use. I have no need at all for a Roon.

 

[spiritofmusic]

For me, the landing zone I have for streaming is -

1- finding that magic synergy of dac/server that gets in the zone re SQ for a reasonable price (nothing original there, all my gear apart from a few exceptions, is massive vfm compared to the usual suspects all over any WBF member systems).

2- finding new music and related searches on deep genre dives. Going from Rush to French-Canadian prog gems I may or may not have heard of, to French Zeuhl hardcore gems to super obscure Japanese prog.

I have a shortlist of dacs $1k-$3k that I'm fully confident overperform at this pricepoint. It's just the server choice leaving me a little lacking in confidence. And this recent Roon glitch in SQ story makes me wonder if Roon is for me.

All I want to do is get deep searches to music I'd never have found the usual way, and an overview of classical and jazz. The curated library, extensive metadata, DSP, mutizone install thing, is not particularly for me. But finding dozens of obscure albums in prog, fusion, electric jazz and ambient/prog electronica/new classical/percussion-based new music, definitely is.

And thus, is Roon essential to the whole discovery aspect, way more than standard Tidal app? And if it is, does that fully compensate for those Roon computer coders fouling up SQ?...We can't all have an Emile fighting our cause.

 

[HughP3]

For me, the landing zone I have for streaming is -


And thus, is Roon essential to the whole discovery aspect, way more than standard Tidal app?

Before Tidal i used/still do www.music-map.com It pretty good for finding ”close to“ music. But Tidal is so much more..

 

[morricab]

For me, the landing zone I have for streaming is -

1- finding that magic synergy of dac/server that gets in the zone re SQ for a reasonable price (nothing original there, all my gear apart from a few exceptions, is massive vfm compared to the usual suspects all over any WBF member systems).

2- finding new music and related searches on deep genre dives. Going from Rush to French-Canadian prog gems I may or may not have heard of, to French Zeuhl hardcore gems to super obscure Japanese prog.

I have a shortlist of dacs $1k-$3k that I'm fully confident overperform at this pricepoint. It's just the server choice leaving me a little lacking in confidence. And this recent Roon glitch in SQ story makes me wonder if Roon is for me.

All I want to do is get deep searches to music I'd never have found the usual way, and an overview of classical and jazz. The curated library, extensive metadata, DSP, mutizone install thing, is not particularly for me. But finding dozens of obscure albums in prog, fusion, electric jazz and ambient/prog electronica/new classical/percussion-based new music, definitely is.

And thus, is Roon essential to the whole discovery aspect, way more than standard Tidal app? And if it is, does that fully compensate for those Roon computer coders fouling up SQ?...We can't all have an Emile fighting our cause.

We like Lucas audio lab
https://www.lucasaudiolab.com/support/order/

Great sounding product from a guy who knows his stuff. We had his nanoserver at our last show:
https://www.lucasaudiolab.com/events/

 

[Jeffy]

I used JRiver before Roon and I like Roon better period. Its very easy to use, I don't have issues with it and at the end of the day once you pick whatever software its just getting used to it, learning how to use it for your own enjoyment and back to the music. I have a server with 8 TB of music and I have Tidal and Qobuz all work with Roon seamlessly. My DAC has a Roon endpoint so its an ethernet cable away and Viola!
There are some things in life and in audio I don't care to screw around with. My friend is much more in tune woth the digital world and has tried a bunch of these items and I have heard a few at his home on his system. We both agreed that Roon was the way to go.

I use Jriver and have no problems. What was better about Roon. If the sound is better I am interested.

 

[asiufy]

And are Roon users w servers at a lesser level than the Extreme, eg Innuos Zenith, detecting this drop in SQ as a result of recent Roon changes?

Not one of my clients have complained, regarding their Innuos servers. Some actually wrote that it felt snappier.