Taiko Audio SGM Extreme : the Crème de la Crème

[matthias]

since the bits of data (analogous to a master file or tape) gets converted to dac readable data (vinyl mastering process) by the server, i view the server + data = pressing.

further.....since everyone's data is basically identical; the further analogy is that the server makes a difference like the pressing makes a difference.

two systems with exactly the same data and dac, will sound different with different servers, like two systems playing the same recording, with the same gear, but different pressings.

essentially we have moved on from data being significant. it's not changed in 20 years. dacs are now better. but the big change is servers have matured. they had a very long way to go from the dirty things they were.

In my view the pressing or visceral LP is similar to the digital file you get from Qobuz or Tidal.
The same pressing sounds different with different turntables and so does the file from Qobuz with different servers.

Matt

 

[dminches]

since the bits of data (analogous to a master file or tape) gets converted to dac readable data (vinyl mastering process) by the server, i view the server + data = pressing.

Mike, I don’t see it that way since digital data is analogous to analog data. That is, digital masterings can differ the same way LP or tape masterings can. Thus, to compare the server, which processes the data, to the LP which is the data, doesn’t seem right to me.

None of this really matters but I like the analogy of the server to the turntable since both perform the function of the forming the foundation of moving information.

 

[Steve Williams]

In the great scheme of things with the Extreme and its blistering fast ability to move from one format to another I have found that in may system "all formats" sound so good that it has come to be totally irrelevant to me which is being played as they all sound so good to my ears.

 

[spiritofmusic]

since the bits of data (analogous to a master file or tape) gets converted to dac readable data (vinyl mastering process) by the server, i view the server + data = pressing.

further.....since everyone's data is basically identical; the further analogy is that the server makes a difference like the pressing makes a difference.

two systems with exactly the same data and dac, will sound different with different servers, like two systems playing the same recording, with the same gear, but different pressings.

essentially we have moved on from data being significant. it's not changed in 20 years. dacs are now better. but the big change is servers have matured. they had a very long way to go from the dirty things they were.

Mike, I find your analogy that: Extreme = best tt PLUS best pressing, and in effect because Tidal is providing the best digital files for all servers that utilise it, Extreme is equivalent to the best tt w the best vinyl collection.

I think my early audio experience is telling. Back in the 80s and 90s I regularly went to demos at Grahams in N.London, the premier UK dealership for Linn and Naim who had the stranglehold on British audio.

There was the religious run thru the range of Linn tts, from sub £500 Basik to £3k LP12 Sondek (remember these are prices from 25+ years ago). And of course, arms and carts.

And it was ably demonstrated that the strong message from the dealer to go priciest LP12 Sondek tt, and more affordable arm and cart, made sense within a restricted budget, and go to TOTL arm and cart at later date when funds permitted.

I wouldnt be at all suprised that if Linn were promoting servers today, an Extreme in their line would be advertised as THE key component in the source, and the message would be hold back on the dac if you have to. And I suspect the USB cbl would be considered part of the server.

So Extreme plus best USB > best dac.
The Q then is, just how good are dacs in the $5-10k bracket.

 

[bonzo75]

"Extreme is equivalent to the best tt w the best vinyl collection" - how did we get here?

 

[spiritofmusic]

Ked, you're obviously late to the discussion. We're talking analogies to vinyl rigs. In summary, up until Extreme it was commonly understood to go for the best dac, and a reasonably inexpensive server, maybe at most a 50/50 split re budget. Hell, there are users of a laptop/Mac w Select 2.

The idea now is that Extreme is so powerful in manipulating data to the dac, that it more and more (in the digital world) resembles the very best tts, and may be the only server that dictates putting as many resources twds it and USB, and "compromise" more on the DAC.

Noone is literally calling the Extreme the equivalent of an AF0 w The General's lp collection. But for digital guys, Extreme plus Tidal is the nearest situation to The General.

 

[Mike Lavigne]

Mike, I find your analogy that: Extreme = best tt PLUS best pressing, and in effect because Tidal is providing the best digital files for all servers that utilise it, Extreme is equivalent to the best tt w the best vinyl collection.

I think my early audio experience is telling. Back in the 80s and 90s I regularly went to demos at Grahams in N.London, the premier UK dealership for Linn and Naim who had the stranglehold on British audio.

There was the religious run thru the range of Linn tts, from sub £500 Basik to £3k LP12 Sondek (remember these are prices from 25+ years ago). And of course, arms and carts.

And it was ably demonstrated that the strong message from the dealer to go priciest LP12 Sondek tt, and more affordable arm and cart, made sense within a restricted budget, and go to TOTL arm and cart at later date when funds permitted.

I wouldnt be at all suprised that if Linn were promoting servers today, an Extreme in their line would be advertised as THE key component in the source, and the message would be hold back on the dac if you have to. And I suspect the USB cbl would be considered part of the server.

So Extreme plus best USB > best dac.
The Q then is, just how good are dacs in the $5-10k bracket.

not had that price range dac in my system. but my first GG, and my original Aqua Formula dac were both in that $13k--$17k range, so the next step up. but many tout a number of dacs in that price range as giant killers. i personally cannot comment.

what i would say is that some dacs prefer 'bit perfect' and other dacs 'up-sample'. it's possible this might have something to do with which dacs get the biggest boost from which server. not saying that most servers can't be good with both approaches, but i'd guess there are lesser and greater synergies involved.

and it might be that 'price range' could be related to 'bit perfect' or not. don't know, but that tech might just cost more at this time. or just not filtered down far enough. all just guessing on my part.

maybe Emile could comment as all i'm doing is connecting the dots from observations.

so which modestly priced dacs will be the best one's on the price value curve for the Extreme? don't really know. maybe the entry level MSB as i assume it's a 'bit-perfect' dac. not sure it's everyone's idea of modestly price though.

 

[shaned]

Guys, I really do value all yr responses and analysis. The move to streaming for this particular consumer has set up some tricky to resolve dichotomies, and everyone's input is totally valued, at least by me.

If this was simply the dilemma of a better tt or cdp or amp or spkrs, it would be an argument of what you can afford v what impvts accrued.

If it was simply about whether to buy a cdp post 1983, it would purely be an argument as to when releases became cd only, or if you swung to preferring digital.

Streaming doesn't quite fit these decisions, it's a whole new delivery method, and suddenly multiple component decisions become evident.

It was as a result of interpreting MikeL's comment on Extreme being pretty much a gamechanger delivering info to the dac in a drastically more accurate way leading to the server taking greater prominence in the server/dac heirarchy that got me posing the Q of spending greater majority of budget on it being reasonable. The responses have been most interesting.

Hi Marc

At the minute I am in the process of upgrading my streaming but I’m also conscious of cost and seeing what is or isn’t affordable and practical, I’ve moved from all Tellurium Q Silver Diamond Cables to a full loom of Sablon cables XLR, RCA’s, Speakers And Ethernet, powercords to come next year hopefully. My preamp has a Dac but it only has 3 Spdif inputs and doesn’t have either Roon, Qobuz or Tidal implementedso instead of buying a streamer /server and using the Spdif which some don’t even have I decided on getting the newly upgraded Aqua Acoustics XHD Dac for a great price. This will then let me start saving up to buy the cheaper Extreme version later in 2020 and that will give me the option to see what sounds best the Extreme into my preamp via Spdif, Extreme into the XHD via either Ethernet or usb then into my preamp via the RCA’s. I will still keep my TT and albums but since I use Qobuz too 99% of those albums I have on vinyl I also ow stream as well only for

Mike, I find your analogy that: Extreme = best tt PLUS best pressing, and in effect because Tidal is providing the best digital files for all servers that utilise it, Extreme is equivalent to the best tt w the best vinyl collection.

I think my early audio experience is telling. Back in the 80s and 90s I regularly went to demos at Grahams in N.London, the premier UK dealership for Linn and Naim who had the stranglehold on British audio.

There was the religious run thru the range of Linn tts, from sub £500 Basik to £3k LP12 Sondek (remember these are prices from 25+ years ago). And of course, arms and carts.

And it was ably demonstrated that the strong message from the dealer to go priciest LP12 Sondek tt, and more affordable arm and cart, made sense within a restricted budget, and go to TOTL arm and cart at later date when funds permitted.

I wouldnt be at all suprised that if Linn were promoting servers today, an Extreme in their line would be advertised as THE key component in the source, and the message would be hold back on the dac if you have to. And I suspect the USB cbl would be considered part of the server.

So Extreme plus best USB > best dac.
The Q then is, just how good are dacs in the $5-10k bracket.

Hi Mark
I’ve seen several people including Mark Sablon Audio using the AQua Acoustics XHD Dac I’m in the process of getting this next month and I was able to get a great deal on a brand new one with the latest upgrade and I saved roughly a third of the retail price which is £11,250 so there are great deals out there for DACs which aren’t out of reach.

 

[Steve Williams]

Hell, there are users of a laptop/Mac w Select 2.

according to Vince Galbo NSM of MSB when using a Select he told me you don't have to go overboard with an expensive server and said that done right a laptop with JRiver is all you need for great sound.

So you can build the system around the DAC or you can build the system around the server. Take your pick

 

[Mike Lavigne]

according to Vince Galbo NSM of MSB when using a Select he told me you don't have to go overboard with an expensive server and said that done right a laptop with JRiver is all you need for great sound.

So you can build the system around the DAC or you can build the system around the server. Take your pick

Vince sells dacs, not servers. OTOH he has great ears and when he gets exposed to a game changing server like the Extreme i expect his viewpoint will change.

 

[Steve Williams]

OTOH he has great ears

he does sell DAC's but has not heard the Extreme and I agree with you but having said that he does have great ears and states emphatically there is no need to go overboard in buying a server when using the Select

 

[spiritofmusic]

Shane, I'm fully aware of how exemplary the Formula XHD is, having heard it several times now at Blue58's on his SGM. I have a couple of reservations about it, but it ticks most of the main boxes. And since Emile informs me what we jokingly called Kid Extreme (the new "entry" level Taiko server upgradeable to full Extreme) leaves SGM in its wake, £30k covers that entry Extreme/Sablon USB/Aqua XHD combo. I've spent close to that on my multiple upgraded tt front end, so have no qualms on that kind of outlay (other than finding it Lol).

My issue would be having to absolutely spend as much or more on the Dac as the Extreme, as has been the ratio up to now on servers and dacs. If that formula was rigid, then £10k would likely be my spend on Innuos Zenith and slightly pricier dac, eg new Holo May, or £25k on Innuos Statement plus Formula XHD.

 

[Mike Lavigne]

he does sell DAC's but has not heard the Extreme and I agree with you but having said that he does have great ears and states emphatically there is no need to go overboard in buying a server when using the Select

 

[matthias]

so which modestly priced dacs will be the best one's on the price value curve for the Extreme? don't really know. maybe the entry level MSB as i assume it's a 'bit-perfect' dac. not sure it's everyone's idea of modestly price though.

The mentioned Schiit Yggdrasil needs bit-perfect input for its own OS.

Matt

 

[matthias]

My issue would be having to absolutely spend as much or more on the Dac as the Extreme, as has been the ratio up to now on servers and dacs. If that formula was rigid, then £10k would likely be my spend on Innuos Zenith and slightly pricier dac, eg new Holo May, or £25k on Innuos Statement plus Formula XHD.

Take the full Extreme and spend the rest on the DAC, it so easy.......

Matt

 

[dminches]

Ked, you're obviously late to the discussion. We're talking analogies to vinyl rigs. In summary, up until Extreme it was commonly understood to go for the best dac, and a reasonably inexpensive server, maybe at most a 50/50 split re budget.

Marc, this isn’t true. Go check out the discussions at audiostylestyle.com. People have been putting a lot of money towards servers long before the Extreme. Companies like Aurender have had every expensive servers on the market for a number of years. Optimizing the data stream prior to feeding the DAC has been a goal for many for years.

 

[jespera]

Jesper, whenever I introduce reflections upon server v cd transport, the sighs and eyes rolling begin. Good luck ploughing this furrow.

Yes it seems so. Despite overwhelming praise for this and that server (in this case the extreme) noone seem willing or able to directly answer the question how it compares to a cd player.

Maybe because they havent made the comparison or maybe because they dont care.

Maybe life is easier if you stick to remasters, dddd recordings and dab radio.

A person told me that I would have an easier time with digital if i didnt listen so much to records. Maybe it also helps to stay away from live music.

Jesper

 

[spiritofmusic]

Well Jesper, even Microstrip with a full Vivaldi stack AND Extreme STILL prefers some cd's on his lowly Lol Metronome cd transport/dac.

 

[Rhapsody]

Sure thanks,
my question @Taiko Audio:

Emile,
do exist SQ differences between the five USB outputs of Extreme?
Thanks

Matt

Hey Matt,

The answer I believe is that the 3.1 Gen2 is the best sounding USB port. I'm answering so Emile doesn't miss this and can answer with additional information.

 

[matthias]

Yes it seems so. Despite overwhelming praise for this and that server (in this case the extreme) noone seem willing or able to directly answer the question how it compares to a cd player.

Generally you pay for the same performance less with a CD player. But with the Extreme, I do not know.

Matt