While we don't normally think of them as such, most coaxials are horns! The horn is the mid/woofer/midwoofer's cone. No it doesn't provide the kind of horn loading needed for uber-efficiency; it's more like a "waveguide-style" horn, wherein pattern control rather than acoustic amplification is its raison d'etre.
So imo one possible implication is that THAT type of horn can be pretty good on vocals, albeit at the expense of some efficiency and bandwidth.
"Speaker design is tradeoffs, Highness. Anyone who says differently is in marketing." - from The Princess Bride (poetic license invoked)
Yes, but compared to a "real" horn, it lacks the issues that make horns sound less clear on vocals. Calling it a horn is not quite accurate imo, but no big deal, it's just semantics.
That said, I also agree with your last statement and I don't think coax drivers are as good as a separate tweeter. My impressions are that KEF/TAD/AJ type coax mid/tweets don't make for a speaker system that disappears in the room as completely as some other speakers. But the quality of the drivers allow them to resolve detail that can make vocals sound stunning.
Once you hear the jump factor of good horn speakers, it's hard to return to dynamic box speakers. One is alive one is hifi. For me, the worst horn speaker is better than most dynamic box Spears.
I seldom respond to posts teed up for controversy. But I feel compelled to say that I completely disagree with the second part of statement in the basis of my, admittedly limited, experience. Yes, I agree on the jump factor of horns and their sheer physicality. But the worst horns being better than the most dynamic box....not imo.
LOL. I certainly enjoy my speakers that cost less than $150K. I doubt if a band played in my living room that I would enjoy it. They would probably take all the room.
"So imo one possible implication is that THAT type of horn can be pretty good on vocals, albeit at the expense of some efficiency and bandwidth."
Hello Duke
Lets not forget the vintage Tannoy coaxials where the woofer cone did work as a horn and of course the Altec 604 and Urie monitors. I used a Urei 811C as my center channel speaker for years. It did vocals extremely well and it took me years to eventually find a replacement.
"Once you hear the jump factor of good horn speakers, it's hard to return to dynamic box speakers. One is alive one is hifi. For me, the worst horn speaker is better than most dynamic box Spears."
Not sure what you have heard but I have had the displeasure of listening to a couple truely awful vintage horn systems. They were colored shouted at you and were all ragged mids no bass no highs. I can't agree with that. My Revel Performa F206's eat many a horn system for lunch IMHO. So I get a lot pleasure from my F206's even though I also own a couple of hybrid cone and horn systems.
I seldom respond to posts teed up for controversy. But I feel compelled to say that I completely disagree with the second part of statement in the basis of my, admittedly limited, experience. Yes, I agree on the jump factor of horns and their sheer physicality. But the worst horns being better than the most dynamic box....not imo.
A question for our resident speaker experts - where does ‘waveguide’ end and ‘horn loading’ begin? Have been chatting a little with Bill of late about various horn speakers and we never quite nailed this one down. Does an AG Duo Mezzo, for example, have horn bass or is it just an extended waveguide?
A question for our resident speaker experts - where does ‘waveguide’ end and ‘horn loading’ begin? Have been chatting a little with Bill of late about various horn speakers and we never quite nailed this one down. Does an AG Duo Mezzo, for example, have horn bass or is it just an extended waveguide?
"Once you hear the jump factor of good horn speakers, it's hard to return to dynamic box speakers. One is alive one is hifi. For me, the worst horn speaker is better than most dynamic box Spears."
Not sure what you have heard but I have had the displeasure of listening to a couple truely awful vintage horn systems. They were colored shouted at you and were all ragged mids no bass no highs. I can't agree with thyat. My Revel Performa F206's eat many a horn system for lunch IMHO. So I get a lot pleasure from my F206's even though I also own a couple of hybrid cone and horn systems.
Yes, the very worst sound bar none I've ever heard from a high end system, or at least one that aspires to be, was some horn system at AXPONA 2017. Nasal, extremely colored, rough sounding, "vintage" in the worst way possible.
On the other hand, the for me best sound at that same show was Volti Rival horns driven by BorderPatrol electronics. Can't say though it was better than what I have at home with my cone based monitors/subs, including on dynamics, and timbral resolution was less.
There were a lot of systems at that show that on paper should have sounded superb, but didn't. But then, a show is not the place to expect best sound.
A question for our resident speaker experts - where does ‘waveguide’ end and ‘horn loading’ begin? Have been chatting a little with Bill of late about various horn speakers and we never quite nailed this one down. Does an AG Duo Mezzo, for example, have horn bass or is it just an extended waveguide?
Waveguide horns. The term "waveguide" is used to describe horns with low acoustic loading, such as conic, quadratic, oblate spheroidal or elliptic cylindrical horns. These are designed more to control the radiation pattern rather than to gain efficiency via improved acoustic loading.
So as I see it, those short oblate spheroid ie. Jbl type are waveguides and those with Tractrix, Le Cleach, Exponential inc Swings are Horn loaded.
Waveguide horns. The term "waveguide" is used to describe horns with low acoustic loading, such as conic, quadratic, oblate spheroidal or elliptic cylindrical horns. These are designed more to control the radiation pattern rather than to gain efficiency via improved acoustic loading.
So as I see it, those short oblate spheroid ie. Jbl type are waveguides and those with Tractrix, Le Cleach, Exponential inc Swings are Horn loaded.
Waveguide horns. The term "waveguide" is used to describe horns with low acoustic loading, such as conic, quadratic, oblate spheroidal or elliptic cylindrical horns. These are designed more to control the radiation pattern rather than to gain efficiency via improved acoustic loading.
So as I see it, those short oblate spheroid ie. Jbl type are waveguides and those with Tractrix, Le Cleach, Exponential inc Swings are Horn loaded.
According to Bert himself the lower “bass” horn on the Swings is a waveguide rather than a horn. I suspect it is due to the fact that the driver isn’t actually horn loaded for many of the frequencies it is operating at (as to do so would require gigantic lengths of horn).
Waveguide horns. The term "waveguide" is used to describe horns with low acoustic loading, such as conic, quadratic, oblate spheroidal or elliptic cylindrical horns. These are designed more to control the radiation pattern rather than to gain efficiency via improved acoustic loading.
So as I see it, those short oblate spheroid ie. Jbl type are waveguides and those with Tractrix, Le Cleach, Exponential inc Swings are Horn loaded.
I'd agree with that, and while many of these devices do tend to be one or the other it's possible to be in between. My speaker would be difficult to define as a waveguide or horn, it has some acoustic loading, but it's not to get the best possible efficiency, it's to linearize the natural rising response of the driver. I use a LeCleach profile to minimize coloration, but the horn only needs to be about 6" deep to provide the correct gain at the frequencies required to make it's response linear.
Most bass "horns" aren't true horns either, and really not waveguides in the sense of typical mid/tweeter waveguides. They provide some increase in velocity and impact to the listener as long as they are sitting close enough to the speaker. This effect can also be had by slot loading like Pass' SLOB design (slot-loaded open-baffle), which has been used recently by Voxativ. IMO, the space taken up by a "bass horn" is probably best used to simply utilize more woofers with more surface area, except for SLOB, which can be made very compact for the woofer surface area, but I'm not sure how "natural" the velocity effect of these systems are...
The M2 is an example of a wave guide. The speaker has excellent dispersion and zero cupped hands. It doesn't assist the compression driver in "amplifying" sound however.
