And then there were three...

[dctom]

Dave, what would that involve?
Benefits?

Marc this is a thread about IB (no, not irritable bowel!)

https://www.whatsbestforum.com/showthread.php?5402-Infinite-Baffle-and-the-Audiophile

 

[morricab]

Well the consensus seems to be that down firing subs are out, so no Animas or Universum.

The only full range horns that will go sub 30Hz and not use SS amps separately to sub bass, in the £40k sweet spot (Trios w BHs excluded, again w Class D to subs, and closer to £80k), are candidates like Zingali Client/Client Evo w 15" sub drivers, Haigner Alpha and GammaHorns).

Luckily my room is such a dream for spkr placement (w caveat of max spkr ht of 5.5') that positioning to lock down bass could be v straightforward.

Down firing subs can work very well. On Unversums, the down firing woofer is actually going up well into the mids. At least on a hard floor this seems to still work well but if you have carpet??

 

[the sound of Tao]

+1 Brad... down firing subs are actually quite good to work with as long as you have adjustable height feet which then allows you to tune them in with the height off the floor. Small increments seem to make good modifications and ultimately becomes a great way to dial the bottom end in. Also I have only tried them with two different downfiing horns (one front loaded and the other back loaded) and on hardwood and also marble flooring so unsure on the effect on carpet. My fave was with the front loaded Animas.

 

[Jeffy]

In my experience full range speakers are hard to set up where the imaging and bass are both spot on. I decided that I'm going to set up my full range with the best imaging and then use subs to do what they do best. My room is 20 feet X 30 Feet with angled ceiling that goes from 12 feet to 18 feet. I could never get full range speakers to go below 40 hz in my room and I had a lot of them. My friend use to be the Rep. for Velodyne subs. and knows how to set these up perfectly. The DD series uses servo controlled woofers and deliver bass in very low distortion levels. I had Michael Fremer in my room and he could not hear the subs at all; that's how integrated they are. I just think you need the right subs and must know how to properly set them up. I have no reason to take these out.

 

[Tango]

I do have all possible resources and options laid out with only limitations on space. And I chose to do what I did for best compromise that suits my music genre. My room is a working space not a dedicated room. Nonetheless I don’t feel like I am missing much..maybe just a cherry on top of my ice cream.

Tang

 

[Audiophile Bill]

Down firing subs can work very well. On Unversums, the down firing woofer is actually going up well into the mids. At least on a hard floor this seems to still work well but if you have carpet??

Not sure if you saw the comment from Shakti but they are rolled below 60hz too. Would like to see how down they are at 50 and 40hz

 

[spiritofmusic]

Bill, 60Hz sounds about right on the couple of occasions I've heard them (caveat, show conditions).

 

[morricab]

Bill, 60Hz sounds about right on the couple of occasions I've heard them (caveat, show conditions).

Sounded significantly lower at Christoph’s and at Munich shows. I would say strong to below 40hz.

 

[Lagonda]

Marc, have you tried a garden concrete tile under your down firing sub ? It’s simple, inexpensive and very effective on suspended wooden floors. Get a 1m + 1m tile and try it out. My MBl’s have down firing subs and where hard to integrate when i had a suspended wood floor. A concrete tile saved the day. You can always upgrade to exotic stone if it works for you. I’m using them under my downs firing Vandersteen subs in my TV room these days.

 

[morricab]

+1 Brad... down firing subs are actually quite good to work with as long as you have adjustable height feet which then allows you to tune them in with the height off the floor. Small increments seem to make good modifications and ultimately becomes a great way to dial the bottom end in. Also I have only tried them with two different downfiing horns (one front loaded and the other back loaded) and on hardwood and also marble flooring so unsure on the effect on carpet. My fave was with the front loaded Animas.

Yes, my Odeons have adjustable legs and they fit into a base (of painted plywood I think) that keeps the spacing the same regardless of the surface the plate is on.

 

[spiritofmusic]

Lagonda, my Zus are sited on Symposium Acoustics Svelte Shelves.

Initially I was using Rollerblocks as well, but they're gone.

I'm of a mind to get rid of the Sveltes as well.

First I'm going to do a bit of comparing of specialist spkrs isolation footers, and certainly try your suggestion of a harder surface for the subs to fire into.

I've actually nailed down a subs setting that finally works for me, this stuff is all gilding the Lily I hope.

 

[christoph]

Sounded significantly lower at Christoph’s and at Munich shows. I would say strong to below 40hz.

I agree.

 

[Lagonda]

Lagonda, my Zus are sited on Symposium Acoustics Svelte Shelves.

Initially I was using Rollerblocks as well, but they're gone.

I'm of a mind to get rid of the Sveltes as well.

First I'm going to do a bit of comparing of specialist spkrs isolation footers, and certainly try your suggestion of a harder surface for the subs to fire into.

I've actually nailed down a subs setting that finally works for me, this stuff is all gilding the Lily I hope.

If you are compensating for floor boom by dialing the subs down it may be a slippery slope. Metal spikes into brass or metal cups will give you a good coupling to the tile and to the floor. Your wife will probably appreciate the decrease in thumping underneath to.

 

[spiritofmusic]

Lagonda, after some chat w 213Cobra, who knows more about dialling in Zus than anyone, I've hit on what seems to be the right setting for me, main full range drivers now crossing to subs at 42Hz, level 3/10.

Critically I'm finally getting the significance of PEQ Freq and Gain, again making strides here.

I hate to admit it, but what took KeithR an hour on Day One of install of his Zus to nail, has taken me 6 years.

I've always been a slow learner LOL.

Anyhow, 3 days in now, and I'm just not fussing, angst back in its cage. I'm enjoying a naturally warm presentation, plenty of texture, w no loss of agility. My benchmarks of snare attack and resonance, piano impact and body, ride cymbal definition and spread, are all better than I've ever had.

My remaining investigation here is what to do w how the Zus are supported.

Stick w stock spikes. On the Symposium or on the floor. Ditto some specialist spikes. Ditto some bespoke Lead footers I've sourced. And then comparison w two specialist footers systems that Im trying. And specialist spkrs isolation platforms sold by a member here. And then Lagonda's suggestion to place a hard surface under the Zu subs.

Yep, no more obsessive fussing for me LOL.

 

[Audiophile Bill]

Guys - Shakti has measured the Uni in his room and confirms roll off below 60hz. Just need to see the data for how much roll off. Either way he felt the need for a sub.

Shakti - if you are reading this - please would you kindly post the frequency response plot you got in room.

Cheers

 

[Lagonda]

Lagonda, after some chat w 213Cobra, who knows more about dialling in Zus than anyone, I've hit on what seems to be the right setting for me, main full range drivers now crossing to subs at 42Hz, level 3/10.

Critically I'm finally getting the significance of PEQ Freq and Gain, again making strides here.

I hate to admit it, but what took KeithR an hour on Day One of install of his Zus to nail, has taken me 6 years.

I've always been a slow learner LOL.

Anyhow, 3 days in now, and I'm just not fussing, angst back in its cage. I'm enjoying a naturally warm presentation, plenty of texture, w no loss of agility. My benchmarks of snare attack and resonance, piano impact and resonance, ride cymbal definition and spread, are all better than I've ever had.

My remaining investigation here is what to do w how the Zus are supported.

Stick w stock spikes. On the Symposium or on the floor. Ditto some specialist spikes. Ditto some bespoke Lead footers I've sourced. And then comparison w two specialist footers systems that Im trying. And specialist spkrs isolation platforms sold by a member here. And then Lagonda's suggestion to place a hard surface under the Zu subs.

Yep, no more obsessive fussing for me LOL.

Marc, the hard surface will also stabilize the floor around your speaker with its larger footprint. I don’t know how flexible your floor is. I once lived in a wooden house with suspended wood floors built into a mountainside in Sweden. I ended up placing concrete tile under and around the down firing speakers and rebuilding the walls in MDF to get the tight bass response i wanted. My current main listening room have indoor MDF shudders built into 2 windows camouflaged as pictures.
I know about being a little obsessive.

 

[christoph]

Hi Bill

Guys - Shakti has measured the Uni in his room and confirms roll off below 60hz. Just need to see the data for how much roll off. Either way he felt the need for a sub.

Shakti - if you are reading this - please would you kindly post the frequency response plot you got in room.

Cheers

Jürgen took in-room measurements at the listening spot.

You are aware, that these measurements are a function of Speaker AND room?
In the bass, the room has bigger influence on the measurements than the Speaker itself

Trust me, in my (bass challenging) room, the Unis easily go below 40Hz before they start to roll off.
In my room, the Unis work a lot better in the bass than the Odeon 38/2 using the same size woofer (15')

 

[microstrip]

Guys - Shakti has measured the Uni in his room and confirms roll off below 60hz. Just need to see the data for how much roll off. Either way he felt the need for a sub.

Shakti - if you are reading this - please would you kindly post the frequency response plot you got in room.

Cheers

In room bass measurements at a particular point are just that - no way a measure of response of the speaker. Many times bass roll off is caused by cancellation due to the out of phase bass reflection it the walls.

 

[Audiophile Bill]

In room bass measurements at a particular point are just that - no way a measure of response of the speaker. Many times bass roll off is caused by cancellation due to the out of phase bass reflection it the walls.

Yes fully aware.

 

[Audiophile Bill]

Hi Bill



Jürgen took in-room measurements at the listening spot.

You are aware, that these measurements are a function of Speaker AND room?
In the bass, the room has bigger influence on the measurements than the Speaker itself

Trust me, in my (bass challenging) room, the Unis easily go below 40Hz before they start to roll off.
In my room, the Unis work a lot better in the bass than the Odeon 38/2 using the same size woofer (15')

Yes I am of course aware. That said he is getting 60hz and then roll off at his current listening position, which isn’t too good lol. Not sure whether he has moved them around to see if it improves - we can ask Shakti. I would assume he had moved them around loads to optimise bass response before resorting to the 1812 sub but perhaps not.

Which 15” driver is used in the Uni? Possibly another Radian?